Would a newly built 6500 yard par 69 course on 110 acres be accepted in the US

[BCowan]

Would avg core golfer overlook it?  6500 yards from tips.  (4800-6500) yards.  4 sets of tees

[RJ_Daley]

Well,  It seems to me there is absolutely no reason not to be both accepted and held in high esteme, if design is right.  What are the variables and particulars? 

[Ronald Montesano]

http://golfweek.com/news/2014/jun/21/amateur-golf-northeast-amateur-stewart-jolly-wins/

[mike_beene]

Just pick a hole and call it a par 5 to make it a 70. Otherwise people will want a discount. We are not necessarily an intelligent people.

[Nigel Islam]

Just pick a hole and call it a par 5 to make it a 70. Otherwise people will want a discount. We are not necessarily an intelligent people.

Unfortunately I agree.

[J_ Crisham]

Sure- if it was built like Wannamoissette . Might be the best use of a small piece of property I've seen. And it doesn't feel cramped.

[noonan]

The question is would the course be profitable?

[Nigel Islam]

The question is would the course be profitable?

Depends on where it is. Some spots in the country are lacking for good golf courses.

[Cliff Walston]

No.  #endofthread.

Not to anyone who isn't a member of this site and not to half that are.

[Frank Pont]

My new course Ullerberg in the Netherlands will be 5800 m par 70 (its a reversible 9 holes course on 58 acres). Is that close enough?

[BCrosby]

Frank -

Really cool and quite clever. Especially your use of tees off set to fw centerlines. Brings to mind routings by Devereux Emmet.

Bob

[Mike Sweeney]

I think this is the problem with Pound Ridge Golf Course:



It just does not fit the property at 7165 par 72. Now if it had been 6500 yards and a Par 68-69, it could have had a unique niche market in an area crying out for better public golf.

Time is tight these days and it is very convenient to play at PRGC, but losing a bunch of balls, hacking out of rough, and paying $235 (x 2 if I play with my son who will lose a dozen balls) for it just does not work, for me.

In the market of Westchester/Fairfield Counties, I think it could have worked because the demand is high.

[Matt MacIver]

Frank - really cool. Will each green have two flags, or one? 

[Carl Rogers]

logic would tell me that the 22 handicapper whose max drive is 220 would welcome fewer long holes and more short ones

[Ian Andrew]

I had one of my clients, Spring Brook (NJ) go to a par 69 for the back tees.
They had gone back and forth with previous architects by lengthening and shortening the 16th and 17th holes.
Neither worked as a five, but both make solid long fours.

I recommended two fours coming home and they accepted the idea.
The compromise was the white tees remained a five on the 17th.

We used Wannamoissette as our example of quality has nothing to do with par.


That's two of my clients with Plymouth Country Club being the other.
Plymouth has five fours over 440 yards, each long four is outstanding and each would be a disappointing five if changed.
But why change, the course is awesome as a 69.

[Paul Gray]

I'm not sure that the problem is restricted to America. Here in Britain there is also a considerable portion of the market which wouldn't pay full whack for a par 69 course.

The irony is that the better clubs with a par of less than 70 don't have a problem but that message hasn't as yet dripped down to the rank and file. Hindhead (daily tees), Blackmoor, Pulborough, Swinley etc won't be losing sleep over it I'm sure but it's certainly an issue with the bucket and spade brigade.

[A.G._Crockett]

I think par 70 might be a magic number, but otherwise the answer is yes.

I belonged to a club for 15 years that was built in the 1990's on a parcel about this size, was a par 70 and was 6100 from the tips.  As long as the club remained affordable and the course was in good condition, it was a very profitable venture.  Bad management decisions ultimately led to higher prices AND worse conditions and members (myself included) left in droves.  But those are issues regardless of par and yardage.

[archie_struthers]

 

Mike might be a little harsh re: intelligence of the people but he is most likely spot on about acceptance of a par 69 in USA.  It would be looked on as a "short" course or executive by most .

[Jason Thurman]

Plymouth has five fours over 440 yards, each long four is outstanding and each would be a disappointing five if changed.

Ian, what do you mean by this? How does the number printed in the "Par" row on the scorecard make a difference to the hole's quality, and what is it about those holes that would make them disappointing as a par five?

Pending a possible mind-changing answer from Ian, I don't believe that the "par" of a course has anything to do with its quality. It does, however, affect its marketability. As a result, I agree with those who have suggested that you just change the par of one of the holes and make it a par 70.

[Tim_Weiman]

Would avg core golfer overlook it?

BCowan,

We keep forgetting that 6,500 yards is pretty long for most people who play golf.

[BCowan]

Would avg core golfer overlook it?

BCowan,

We keep forgetting that 6,500 yards is pretty long for most people who play golf.

tim,

   Of course that is from the tips.  I don't know of a course in the US that has only 1 set of tees.  I corrected it to make for 4 sets of tees.

[Sean Leary]

Yes, if Bandon did it...

[Michael Moore]

B -

Why not research and celebrate these courses instead of asking a hypothetical question? Here is The Meadows Golf Club which found a niche in Litchfield, Maine, complete with pro shop, restaurant and bar. I'm certain that a core of "core" golfers keeps this place afloat.

[Doug Siebert]

Everything is local.  If the courses in the area are pretty busy, another one would be welcome, and some people might like one that is a bit shorter.  If some are struggling, there's no guarantee the new course wouldn't struggle as well - even if the design is great a bad location or other factors might doom it.

I agree though that doing whatever is necessary to make a par 70 would probably help.  Whether that means a 460 yard par 5 or a 250 yard par 4 is irrelevant.  People in GCA like to claim that par doesn't matter, but it does to the "core" golfer - and given a choice between trying to a sell them on a par 69 with "appropriate" hole pars and a par 70 with one "inappropriate" hole par that is the closest thing to a good birdie chance a 20 handicap will see I know which one I think works better from a marketing perspective.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I fourth or fifth the par 70 idea.  Should it be a problem for general marketability?  NO!  Will it be a problem for general marketability?  YES!  The only caveat would be if it were close enough to a big city where the <1% of golfers who are enlightened archinerds/cognoscenti would form an adequate core clientele/membership.  Perhaps if it could become a sanctuary away from the typical weekend warrior cartball bev cart boobery.  If you did go with 69, I'd really try to push walking only, fun and innovative league play and hickory/vintage tournaments and such to get the real connoiseur contingent involved.  The maven effect.  Maybe I talked myself into getting behind the par 69 idea...

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