Pinehurst - why not just call it rough?

[Carl Johnson]

The TV commentators seem to be struggling.  Is it native area?  Is it the sandy area?  I think I heard that C & C called it "stuff."  Why not just rough?  Looks kind of rough to me?  Well, I guess the problem is that many have come to think of rough as just longer grass of the same kind that's in the fairway.  But, isn't that a little goofy?  What would they call the Pinehurst "stuff" in the British Isles?  Rough? or something else?

[Joe Bausch]

I just received my email notification of the subject of your post while watching the HON vs ECU World Cup game.  And I wondered how Pinehurst conditions for the soccer field pitch would be received.   

That was a wonderful volley from the native area!

[BCrosby]

Last week during the USO the P.C. word was 'sandscape'. Which is silly.

As you say, just call it rough. The bonus is that by doing so it might change people's conception of rough as something more than just slightly taller fw turf.

Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

You can't call it rough and then tell resort guests to play it as a lateral hazard when faced with a lost ball. They would never stop looking for a ball in the "rough".

[Brent Hutto]

You can't call it rough and then tell resort guests to play it as a lateral hazard when faced with a lost ball. They would never stop looking for a ball in the "rough".

Good point.

[BCrosby]

It is not played as a lateral hazard at Pinehurst; the scrub is through the green. Like rough.

Bob

[Carl Johnson]

It is not played as a lateral hazard at Pinehurst; the scrub is through the green. Like rough.

Bob

I think JK's point was that for resort guests it's marked as a lateral hazard (though not for the USGA Opens).  Personally, I have no idea how it's marked for resort guests, but I would assume that JK knows what he's talking about.  (I'm sure others here know more than I do, but I've just clicked off an e-mail to Pinehurst to ask the question.  The auto-response said they'd get back to me asap after the tournament is over and they have more time to respond to general inquiries.)  Beyond that, however, I question whether calling it rough on TV would change how resort guests deal with balls hit into it, whether it's marked as a lateral hazard or not.  Regarding the cost of balls abandoned in the rough/lateral hazard, I wouldn't think the resort guest would be concerned with that, given what it costs to play the place.

[John Kavanaugh]

I am speculating that in the future the resort will request that lost balls be played as a lateral hazard. It is the current policy at Streamsong for pace of play reasons.

[Mike_Young]

I don't know that golf would distinguish it from fairway. " Through the green "  should work.

[BCrosby]

I have not heard that the Resort will designate the scrub areas as lateral hazards. I would be curious to see confirmation.

It would be a bad idea if they do for two main reasons. First, there will be fewer lost balls than you got in P2's older Bermuda roughs, thus less need for relief. Second, more often than not (but not always) it will be easier to advance your ball out of the scrub than out of the older Bermuda roughs. But that is negated if you designate those areas as hazards and you are barred from grounding your club.

Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

Bob,

At Streamsong, and many other courses, you can still ground your club you just toss a ball out where you entered if you lose a ball. It's a modified local rule to prevent people from walking back to the tee or hitting provisionals when the possibility of a lost ball exists.

I was in a tournament at Streamsong when it was put in effect. Thank God as I was paired with multiple 20+ handicaps.

[DMoriarty]

There is no such rule at Pinehurst.  Kavanaugh is just speculating/trolling.

[John Kavanaugh]

There is no such rule at Pinehurst.  Kavanaugh is just speculating/trolling.

It's a great local rule. Not every ball that can be found is worth looking for. Just drop one where it entered the gunch and move on.

[Paul Gray]

So call it rough with you can treat as a lateral hazard. If you're on a little holiday knocking a ball around I fail to see why the definition is important.

[Carl Johnson]

I am speculating that in the future the resort will request that lost balls be played as a lateral hazard. It is the current policy at Streamsong for pace of play reasons.

Sorry, I guess I misread your original post.  From the way it was worded, I thought you meant that was the practice now - not a speculation about the future.

[Carl Johnson]

There is no such rule at Pinehurst.  Kavanaugh is just speculating/trolling.

It's a great local rule. Not every ball that can be found is worth looking for. Just drop one where it entered the gunch and move on.

But then you wouldn't really be playing Pinehurst No. 2, would you?  Pay all that money and not get the experience?  Crazy.

[BCrosby]

The USGA keeps a stat called 'Cost of Rough'. You take the average score on a hole for players who found the rough and measure against the average score of those who hit the fw.

What they found is that CofR in the '99 and '05 Opens at P2 was about a third of a stroke. (The rough in'05 was slightly more penal than in '99).

The CofR for '14 was slightly less than '99 or '05. (About .28 strokes a hole if I recall correctly. Less than a third of a stroke.)

In short, the scrub/rough this year was easier to play out of than typical Bermuda roughs found in tournies in the SE. (This is for the best players in the world. I don't know if the same result would hold for bogey golfers. I'm also very curious to see the CofR for the women this week.)
 
Also interesting is that scoring in '14 was not much different from the scoring in previous Opens at P2. Which raises a question - if players were less penalized by the scrub/rough this year (and more hit the fw as well), but overall scoring remained constant, where did the added difficulty come from?

My guess is that the extra strokes came came from the browned-out, extremely tight lies in the green surrounds. Getting up and down was harder in '14, requiring different kinds of shots than the pros are used to playing. I'm reminded of Pete Dye saying that if you get the Pros to thinking, you've got 'em. Only Kaymer seemed to figure out that you leave your wedge in the bag for those shots.

Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

Payne was wearing a pull over when he won. That says soft greens to me.

[BHoover]

Payne was wearing a pull over when he won. That says soft greens to me.

It says cool temperatures to me...I remember that the course was damp in the final round of the '99 Open, but I don't think that translates to soft greens. Maybe soft by current standards, but not soft by Tour standards.

[John Kavanaugh]

Payne was wearing a pull over when he won. That says soft greens to me.

It says cool temperatures to me...

See for yourself. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9DGzvAndolc Payne takes a country club divot on his 70 some yardage third shot on 18.

[Jon Wiggett]

So call it rough with you can treat as a lateral hazard. If you're on a little holiday knocking a ball around I fail to see why the definition is important.

Paul,

is there any holiday golf in the US anymore? I thought they had to return a card for every round played whether in a competition or not.

Jon

[Ken Moum]

Paul,

is there any holiday golf in the US anymore? I thought they had to return a card for every round played whether in a competition or not.

Jon

We do post ever round, but pretty much all the guys I play with don't play the ball down, even in the rough, and they NEVER play lost balls as stroke and distance.

K

[Paul Gray]

So call it rough with you can treat as a lateral hazard. If you're on a little holiday knocking a ball around I fail to see why the definition is important.

Paul,

is there any holiday golf in the US anymore? I thought they had to return a card for every round played whether in a competition or not.

Jon

Bizarre concept, is it not?

I wonder what I'd be expected to do with my five holes after work with only myself as a partner.

[Jon Wiggett]

So call it rough with you can treat as a lateral hazard. If you're on a little holiday knocking a ball around I fail to see why the definition is important.

Paul,

is there any holiday golf in the US anymore? I thought they had to return a card for every round played whether in a competition or not.

Jon

Bizarre concept, is it not?

I wonder what I'd be expected to do with my five holes after work with only myself as a partner.

Duckworth-Lewis 

Ken

Is that not against the rules?

Jon

[Ken Moum]

So call it rough with you can treat as a lateral hazard. If you're on a little holiday knocking a ball around I fail to see why the definition is important.

Paul,

is there any holiday golf in the US anymore? I thought they had to return a card for every round played whether in a competition or not.

Jon

Bizarre concept, is it not?

I wonder what I'd be expected to do with my five holes after work with only myself as a partner.

No need to post.

Per the USGA Handicap Manual:

5-1. Acceptability of Scores

Fair handicapping depends upon full and accurate information regarding a player's potential scoring ability as reflected by a complete scoring record. Every player must be responsible for returning all acceptable scores, as defined in this section. For handicap purposes, all Section 4 adjustments, including Equitable Stroke Control, must be applied to all scores including tournament scores.

 a. Scores To Post

To post a 9-hole score, the player must play 7 to 12 holes, and at least 7 holes must be played in accordance with the principle of the Rules of Golf.  To post an 18-hole score, the player must play at least 13 holes in accordance with the principles of the Rules of Golf. (See Decisions 5-1a/3 through 5-1a/5.)

FWIW, I think that posting all rounds is a primary contributor to the fact that our system is broken.  NO ONE I know is satisfied with our system, whether their issue is vanity handicaps or sandbaggers, the system DOES NOT achieve the goal allowing platers of disparate ability compete on a reasonably even basis.

FWIW, the send biggest reason it doesn't work is that the difference in course rating and slope between hard courses and easy courses doesn't begin to approach the real difference in player's scores.

Ken