Two post Pinehurst questions

[John Kavanaugh]

Any dispute outside of TV rights?

Yes.  I dispute all of your points.  Saying there aren't holes at Pinehurst that people who love golf wouldn't want to play is absurd.  Maybe Adam is right and the broadcast didn't inspire people to run out and play the holes, but I don't think that is true.  But, then again, I've played there a couple of times and I know how good the golf is.

If you love golf and you don't want to try to play 5...particularly the approach shot...then I don't "get" you.

If you love golf and you don't want to try to play 9, you're missing out.

Same for 13, 15, 16, and 17.  (Heck, most of the holes...as they are really good).

And if you don't want to putt on 18 green...then I just don't understand where your mind is at.

It is such good golf from start to finish.  One interesting shot after another.

But, we all have our own tastes...

I love Pinehurst.  Had one of the most enjoyable days of my golfing life walking 36 holes on #2.  I would love to play there again but my point was nothing from the 2014 tournament was a cause for that inspiration.  I spent years carrying and hitting a four wood because of Corey Pavin.  I even bought a See More because of Payne.  The 2014 US Open was an epic fail on every count.  I'm not saying Pinehurst as an enjoyable destination is a fail, just the tournament.

I will however take $200 and firm/green over $400 and firm/brown everyday.

Please, name one moment of the tournament worthy of replay during next years Open.

[Don Mahaffey]

When will Pine Needles join the P#2 & Mid Pines look?

Carl,

This is not likely to happen soon, as Pine Needles just spent a bunch of money on a total course renovation.  The ink is barely dry on the checks they wrote for that work.  Bravo to the Bell family for doing what they've done at Mid Pines.

TS

Isn't "single row irrigation" a bit unnecissary for what we are trying to accomplish here?  If Pine needles recently did a renovation that included a new irrigation system, certainly it has the capability to control water usage and limit the head it uses.  They should be able to achieve similar turf results (although maybe not the precise single row asthetics) without altering their new irrigation system.

Except very, very few ever do significantly cut water use without removing the ability to put water out. Ugly, tough to swallow, hard truth.
Removing heads or limiting the ability to irrigate signify a true commitment to reducing water use. The golf industry will argue that point for ever, but show me the real data that "we'll put it in but never use it" works. I do not believe that is the way forward.

[Don Mahaffey]

JK, it'll be green next time you go

[Jud_T]

All I know is I was really keen to play the course again post-reno before seeing the Open.  Now I'm even keener.  Anyone who played the course before and doesn't have their interest peaked to get back after seeing this is a curmudgeon IMHO.  Now I just need to justify the relative price and my lack of interest in everything else the resort has to offer at the moment.   When they have the new C&C course and renovate 1 & 3 it will be a no-brainer.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mr. Hutto,
Have you ever been to Pinehurst #2?

JakaB,
 Have you played Pinehurst #2 since the renovations?

Don, I have not.  I also have not gone on about how given proper soils and irrigation I have seen you provide sustainable green and firm.  I am a little troubled at the notion that dying is sustainable.  If dying does not lead to dead you got to much ing.

I do think it will be green next time I go.  At $400 a pop and being the loss leader of the resort it should be nothing less than perfect.

[Brent Hutto]

Sort of like all those folks who refuse to own a credit card because if they do, they'll inevitably run up thousands of dollars in high-interest debt that they can never afford to pay back.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's probably too subtle for the typical Augusta syndrome boomer generation to get anyway.

Besides world class golfers hitting irons off the ladies tees, is there one example from the tournament of a strategic choice?

[Brent Hutto]

Mr. Hutto,
Have you ever been to Pinehurst #2?

JakaB,
 Have you played Pinehurst #2 since the renovations?

See the adjacent thread for my responses, posted moments ago.

[Mac Plumart]

Any dispute outside of TV rights?

Yes.  I dispute all of your points.  Saying there aren't holes at Pinehurst that people who love golf wouldn't want to play is absurd.  Maybe Adam is right and the broadcast didn't inspire people to run out and play the holes, but I don't think that is true.  But, then again, I've played there a couple of times and I know how good the golf is.

If you love golf and you don't want to try to play 5...particularly the approach shot...then I don't "get" you.

If you love golf and you don't want to try to play 9, you're missing out.

Same for 13, 15, 16, and 17.  (Heck, most of the holes...as they are really good).

And if you don't want to putt on 18 green...then I just don't understand where your mind is at.

It is such good golf from start to finish.  One interesting shot after another.

But, we all have our own tastes...

I love Pinehurst.  Had one of the most enjoyable days of my golfing life walking 36 holes on #2.  I would love to play there again but my point was nothing from the 2014 tournament was a cause for that inspiration.  I spent years carrying and hitting a four wood because of Corey Pavin.  I even bought a See More because of Payne.  The 2014 US Open was an epic fail on every count.  I'm not saying Pinehurst as an enjoyable destination is a fail, just the tournament.

I will however take $200 and firm/green over $400 and firm/brown everyday.

Please, name one moment of the tournament worthy of replay during next years Open.

You misunderstood my post, probably due to poor writing on my part.  I didn't mean "you" JakaB when I was making those comments...I meant golfers in general if they weren't inspired to play Pinehurst, as you suggested in your post.

The 2014 US Open was not an epic fail on every count.  You keep stating that it was and if you believe that, fine.  We are all entitled to our opinions.

As far as moments of the tournament for replays next year...who knows.  The tournament will go down as Kaymer dominating, which he did.  Blow out don't create much drama since they are, well, blow outs.  But I enjoyed watching Kaymer play such great golf.  I loved his shot out of the junk on 5 on day 3, to be specific.  I thought that was the turning point of the tournament and probably to shot of the tournament from anyone in contention.

Pinehurst is a great course, which based on your above comments, it seems you agree.  But it isn't a seaside links with incredible views and/or iconic holes.  And, frankly, I've been thinking about Ross courses that have those iconic holes or moments in the round that are unforgettable.  Frankly, I can't think of too many.  All the Ross courses I've played have been, at a minimum, very good.  But few have that stunning moment...like Cypress 16, for example.

[MClutterbuck]

When will Pine Needles join the P#2 & Mid Pines look?

Carl,

This is not likely to happen soon, as Pine Needles just spent a bunch of money on a total course renovation.  The ink is barely dry on the checks they wrote for that work.  Bravo to the Bell family for doing what they've done at Mid Pines.

TS

Isn't "single row irrigation" a bit unnecissary for what we are trying to accomplish here?  If Pine needles recently did a renovation that included a new irrigation system, certainly it has the capability to control water usage and limit the head it uses.  They should be able to achieve similar turf results (although maybe not the precise single row asthetics) without altering their new irrigation system.

Except very, very few ever do significantly cut water use without removing the ability to put water out. Ugly, tough to swallow, hard truth.
Removing heads or limiting the ability to irrigate signify a true commitment to reducing water use. The golf industry will argue that point for ever, but show me the real data that "we'll put it in but never use it" works. I do not believe that is the way forward.

Don, what happens if a huge drought hits NC, middle of summer, 60 days without rain and P2 really takes a hit with dry winds blowing dust all over the course?. Is the Super going to increase irrigation? Is he going to try to have the center irrigation spray/run off to other areas? Is the center of the fairway going to receive more water than it really needs? Does he have a bunch of quick couplers and hoses and is going to water manually the rest of the fairways? I know bermuda is resilent, but there could be a situation where he regrets not having 2x more heads just in case, brake the glass on the emergency button cover, and switch on the other heads. I would rather have the flexibility and the restraint.

Also, we are just talking water, if the bermuda on the sides is stressed too much, you are in a situation where weeds might gain on the bermuda, and then you are bringing in other environmental factors.

Loved Pinehurst, but would like to see some more irrigation heads and same amount of water used.

[John Kavanaugh]

I apologize for being so angry at what I believe is the USGA trying to sell a message rather than provide entertainment.  Hell, I might even come around on the distance issue after just watching a 14 year old girl reach a par 5 in two shots.  

[Andrew Buck]

When will Pine Needles join the P#2 & Mid Pines look?

Carl,

This is not likely to happen soon, as Pine Needles just spent a bunch of money on a total course renovation.  The ink is barely dry on the checks they wrote for that work.  Bravo to the Bell family for doing what they've done at Mid Pines.

TS

Isn't "single row irrigation" a bit unnecissary for what we are trying to accomplish here?  If Pine needles recently did a renovation that included a new irrigation system, certainly it has the capability to control water usage and limit the head it uses.  They should be able to achieve similar turf results (although maybe not the precise single row asthetics) without altering their new irrigation system.

Except very, very few ever do significantly cut water use without removing the ability to put water out. Ugly, tough to swallow, hard truth.
Removing heads or limiting the ability to irrigate signify a true commitment to reducing water use. The golf industry will argue that point for ever, but show me the real data that "we'll put it in but never use it" works. I do not believe that is the way forward.

Well, I'm not suggesting we put it in, but never use it, I'm suggesting it seems wasteful to me to take it out to achieve that directive.  If a club is committed to the look and playability, they shouldn't have to spend a million to simply not use their existing system to the fullest. 

[Grant Saunders]

I am concerned that it is being put forward that a full blown expensive renovation is required to lower maintenance inputs.

Lowering inputs is a simple case of doing just that. It doesn't take a drastic overhaul of your golf course to start saving money or using less water or fert. It is a mindset and philosophy.

[Terry Lavin]

Any dispute outside of TV rights?



Please, name one moment of the tournament worthy of replay during next years Open.

Kenny Perry, the oldest guy out there, sinking that hybrid out of the junk for an eagle. 

But that's about it.  Watching the balls hit the green in good position only to be propelled or repelled or redirected into an unfavorable location doesn't lend itself to good television drama.  It's easy to say that Kaymer took all of the drama out of it by playing so well, but after the novelty of the new look wore off (by the second day), it did become a tad humdrum to me.  The native stuff wasn't much of an impediment to the field and play around the green was so defensive that it took a lot of joy out of it, much in the same way that the 2005 Open at Pinehurst was grueling/boring to watch for pretty much the same reasons.  The new look didn't save it.

The interesting thing to me is to wonder whether I'll enjoy playing the course.  I only went once and I loved the experience, loved the resort and loved the feel.  Being on Number two was very inspiring.  Impossible, but inspiring.  Under US Open conditions, it's just not as cool for some perhaps ineffable reason.

[Ted Sturges]

Any dispute outside of TV rights?

Yes.  I dispute all of your points.  Saying there aren't holes at Pinehurst that people who love golf wouldn't want to play is absurd.  Maybe Adam is right and the broadcast didn't inspire people to run out and play the holes, but I don't think that is true.  But, then again, I've played there a couple of times and I know how good the golf is.

If you love golf and you don't want to try to play 5...particularly the approach shot...then I don't "get" you.

If you love golf and you don't want to try to play 9, you're missing out.

Same for 13, 15, 16, and 17.  (Heck, most of the holes...as they are really good).

And if you don't want to putt on 18 green...then I just don't understand where your mind is at.

It is such good golf from start to finish.  One interesting shot after another.

But, we all have our own tastes...

Mac,

Nice post.  It's like I always say to my wife...    if everyone had the same taste, we wouldn't have "good" taste. 

TS

[Paul Gray]

What no one seems to want to admit is that this redesign was simply an attempt to capture the market that Pinehurst has been losing to Bandon. You may see more courses in the Bandon model, like we have with Streamsong, but no one will be copying Pinehurst.  This last week was an epic fail, this week will be worse.

I doubt anyone on the East Coast would go to Bandon over Pinehurst because golfers here in Virginia have only heard about Bandon in passing.

Odd that Bandon is where I joined you and your friends on a buddie trip. Pinehurst is now nothing more than a playground for the rich. I do believe that golfing demographic is well aware of Bandon and Streamsong.

I honestly am floored by the notion that this was the first US Open played on brown fairways. It will take some patience on my part to see the evidence of what I believe is a bait and switch.  Every course in the country can be firm and brown for a month of excellent play. The proof will be in the pudding, ie...mud

John,

I fear you'r missing one of the fundamental qualities of the game which long ago seemingly vanished from the American golf psyche; namely, seasonality. With that in mind, why would you suggest that less irrigation would simply result in mud? Baked hard soil, yes, but not soggy mud. Not in the summer at least when irrigation would be the only cause of muddy lies. Furthermore, the less you water in the summer, the more likely you are to have lush, as opposed to waterlogged, in the winter.

If there's an argument for irrigation anywhere it's at hot, sandy sites. Why would you bemoan drying fairways in the summer on a clay based northern site?

John,

Never did hear back from you...

[Garland Bayley]

I think we would be having all day coverage of the Women's Open if people wanted to see it.  There are no lack of outlets available to feed tape that is being shot as we speak.  The demographic of people who watch golf at work when given the chance is very desirable.

Is there at least an internet feed?

The Women's Open is too important for Golf Channel. That is why it is on ESPN2.

As far as all day coverage is concerned, there has never been all day coverage of any Women's golf event ever that I know of. It probably won't happen until sometime in the future when we have the Women's Golf Channel.

[Joe Hancock]

I am concerned that it is being put forward that a full blown expensive renovation is required to lower maintenance inputs.

Lowering inputs is a simple case of doing just that. It doesn't take a drastic overhaul of your golf course to start saving money or using less water or fert. It is a mindset and philosophy.

No more calls, we have a winner!

[Randy Thompson]

I am concerned that it is being put forward that a full blown expensive renovation is required to lower maintenance inputs.

Lowering inputs is a simple case of doing just that. It doesn't take a drastic overhaul of your golf course to start saving money or using less water or fert. It is a mindset and philosophy.

No more calls, we have a winner!

IŽll second that!

[Andrew Buck]

I am concerned that it is being put forward that a full blown expensive renovation is required to lower maintenance inputs.

Lowering inputs is a simple case of doing just that. It doesn't take a drastic overhaul of your golf course to start saving money or using less water or fert. It is a mindset and philosophy.

No more calls, we have a winner!

Yep, said much more succinctly and effectively than I could.

[Adam Clayman]

It's probably too subtle for the typical Augusta syndrome boomer generation to get anyway.

Besides world class golfers hitting irons off the ladies tees, is there one example from the tournament of a strategic choice?

I didn't see every shot. The tv coverage was way too interested in watching Lefty walk around on the putting green.

I liked Zach Johnson's strategic choice on #9 Sunday and Kaymer's putt away from the hole. I'm sure hitting irons off #1 was a strategic choice, as well as where players were hitting drivers (or trying to hit driver) on several holes.

I'd watch Kwenny Perry's recovery shot on Saturday all day long.

If the experiment was an epic failure, and I'm not saying it was, I think the usga's decision to back off on setup and firmness at the last minute, watered down the potential for a grand success.

After Shinneythingy in 04', It's not a shock that people don't like setups that put a premium on every facet of the sport. People want predictability and that's reason enough not to give it to them. In the Words of Mortimer Duke, Fug'em.

[John Kavanaugh]

The putt away from the hole was a beautiful example of playing to win.  I may emulate that in the future just like all those four woods from Corey that never quite worked out.

[Adam Clayman]

I did see too many long conversations between player and caddy on the line off the tee. Surely that has to be examples of the pro strategizing .

[Paul Gray]

John,

I hear your silence. And thanks.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I hear your silence. And thanks.

I offered you honest opinions about a course I have played that you have not and you called me a troll, privileged and ignorant. You are on the bench for 30 days.