Two post Pinehurst questions

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

The real question is will Pinehurst be the catalyst for a movement that eventually influences Augusta.

Obviously Augusta isn't likely to be at the forefront of this movement.  The question is whether it's possible in some distant future of environmental time and space for the April barrage of bright green grass and flowers to be seen as an anachronism?

Man I hope not...

I went to Pinehurst last Friday and yesterday, I loved it, I can't wait to play it again.  I have loved Bandon, Streamsong, and all of the links courses I have played in the UK.   But I hope The Masters and ANGC never gets down with brown.  The Masters as it is presented now is spring being reborn in the South every year to me and countless others.  I live in this part of the country, and have neither single line nor double line irrigation in my yard, and the azaleas and dogwoods that are a rite of passage in the spring are still prevalent.  Those flowers happen without any irrigation at my house.  I think it is fine the way it is.

I love when my home club is firm and fast and a bit brown around the edges in the fall, but I also love the lush, (and yes much softer conditions) that exist in the spring when all of the dogwoods are out.  We don't have azaleas because they are not native to our course and we do not plant anything that was not there originally.  But if they were I would love to see them bloom in the spring.

Sometimes some of us on here sound like my sister and most of the vegetarians that I know.  While I am happy for my sister if that is her lifestyle choice.  Heck I even eat vegetables every once in a while, but why do most vegetarians think that it is their right to not only eat vegetables but their duty to see to it that no one else can eat meat?   My wife the dietician has gotten me to believe that a steady diet of steak probably isn't the best for me either, but gosh darn it when my birthday rolled around last week and I was asked if I could have anything I wanted to eat, guess what I wanted.   it wasn't firm asparagus and brown rice...

I loved PH#2 when I saw it last Friday in person and all weekend on TV, I loved it yesterday when I walked it again for a practice round with my daughter and I am looking forward to watching the Women's Open this weekend as well (which probably normally I would not).  I can't wait to play it sometime soon.   But I also can't wait for The Masters next year (in fact when I saw the email last night from ANGC I passed over all work related emails to open it first only to learn that I had not hit the lottery for tickets next year) It is still the highlight of every spring for me and many other people.    There, it may not be popular on here, but I am not afraid to say it.   "I LOVE STEAK, AND I LOVE A GREEN AUGUSTA NATIONAL!!"   And I hope the choice to enjoy either is never forcibly taken away from me!

[Jud_T]

Except for the keeping up with the Joneses set, it seems like a no brainer to me.  Less money spent on water, chemicals and labor and a better playing surface.  The trick is to get folks to prefer the firmness over a perfect carpet of lawn.

[Ted Sturges]

When will Pine Needles join the P#2 & Mid Pines look?

Carl,

This is not likely to happen soon, as Pine Needles just spent a bunch of money on a total course renovation.  The ink is barely dry on the checks they wrote for that work.  Bravo to the Bell family for doing what they've done at Mid Pines.

TS

[BCowan]

The real question is will Pinehurst be the catalyst for a movement that eventually influences Augusta.

Obviously Augusta isn't likely to be at the forefront of this movement.  The question is whether it's possible in some distant future of environmental time and space for the April barrage of bright green grass and flowers to be seen as an anachronism?

Man I hope not...

I went to Pinehurst last Friday and yesterday, I loved it, I can't wait to play it again.  I have loved Bandon, Streamsong, and all of the links courses I have played in the UK.   But I hope The Masters and ANGC never gets down with brown.  The Masters as it is presented now is spring being reborn in the South every year to me and countless others.  I live in this part of the country, and have neither single line nor double line irrigation in my yard, and the azaleas and dogwoods that are a rite of passage in the spring are still prevalent.  Those flowers happen without any irrigation at my house.  I think it is fine the way it is.

I love when my home club is firm and fast and a bit brown around the edges in the fall, but I also love the lush, (and yes much softer conditions) that exist in the spring when all of the dogwoods are out.  We don't have azaleas because they are not native to our course and we do not plant anything that was not there originally.  But if they were I would love to see them bloom in the spring.

Sometimes some of us on here sound like my sister and most of the vegetarians that I know.  While I am happy for my sister if that is her lifestyle choice.  Heck I even eat vegetables every once in a while, but why do most vegetarians think that it is their right to not only eat vegetables but their duty to see to it that no one else can eat meat?   My wife the dietician has gotten me to believe that a steady diet of steak probably isn't the best for me either, but gosh darn it when my birthday rolled around last week and I was asked if I could have anything I wanted to eat, guess what I wanted.   it wasn't firm asparagus and brown rice...

I loved PH#2 when I saw it last Friday in person and all weekend on TV, I loved it yesterday when I walked it again for a practice round with my daughter and I am looking forward to watching the Women's Open this weekend as well (which probably normally I would not).  I can't wait to play it sometime soon.   But I also can't wait for The Masters next year (in fact when I saw the email last night from ANGC I passed over all work related emails to open it first only to learn that I had not hit the lottery for tickets next year) It is still the highlight of every spring for me and many other people.    There, it may not be popular on here, but I am not afraid to say it.   "I LOVE STEAK, AND I LOVE A GREEN AUGUSTA NATIONAL!!"   And I hope the choice to enjoy either is never forcibly taken away from me!

Well said, even though i disagree with you slightly.  It's the everyone must do it mandate and you are killing mother earth environmental wackos that are going to push people away from F&F and Brown is better.  It is sad that people can't see it's important to use the right words. 

[Andrew Buck]

When will Pine Needles join the P#2 & Mid Pines look?

Carl,

This is not likely to happen soon, as Pine Needles just spent a bunch of money on a total course renovation.  The ink is barely dry on the checks they wrote for that work.  Bravo to the Bell family for doing what they've done at Mid Pines.

TS

Isn't "single row irrigation" a bit unnecissary for what we are trying to accomplish here?  If Pine needles recently did a renovation that included a new irrigation system, certainly it has the capability to control water usage and limit the head it uses.  They should be able to achieve similar turf results (although maybe not the precise single row asthetics) without altering their new irrigation system.

[Jason Thurman]

The legacy of Pinehurst and the 2014 US Open is the 74 GCA threads it has inspired (so far) asking what the legacy of Pinehurst and the 2014 US Open is.

It pulled a record low 3.3 rating on Sunday. Outside of 53 members of this forum, no one else was watching. It was a tree falling in a forest.

Economics will be the force that reduces water consumption, not some four day tournament that nobody watched.

[Brent Hutto]

When will Pine Needles join the P#2 & Mid Pines look?

Carl,

This is not likely to happen soon, as Pine Needles just spent a bunch of money on a total course renovation.  The ink is barely dry on the checks they wrote for that work.  Bravo to the Bell family for doing what they've done at Mid Pines.

TS

Isn't "single row irrigation" a bit unnecissary for what we are trying to accomplish here?  If Pine needles recently did a renovation that included a new irrigation system, certainly it has the capability to control water usage and limit the head it uses.  They should be able to achieve similar turf results (although maybe not the precise single row asthetics) without altering their new irrigation system.

That's the point I've been positing throughout this discussion.

[BCowan]

Most of your northern courses pre 90's were all single row.  I would bet the avg 18 handi got a lot more roll too.  Single row and low hanging evergreens aren't a good combination. 

[Brent Hutto]

The legacy of Pinehurst and the 2014 US Open is the 74 GCA threads it has inspired (so far) asking what the legacy of Pinehurst and the 2014 US Open is.

It pulled a record low 3.3 rating on Sunday. Outside of 53 members of this forum, no one else was watching. It was a tree falling in a forest.

Economics will be the force that reduces water consumption, not some four day tournament that nobody watched.

I tend to agree.

The renovation was tour-de-force of how five million dollars in 2014 can be spent on a historical recreation of a course that would have looked and played fantastic in 1949.

I personally think it's cool that Pinehurst spent their millions to create that look instead of spending it to create Augusta National In The Sandhills or any other style they might have chosen. And I give Coore and Crenshaw bonus points for doing the whole thing with one arm figuratively tied behind their back by using a period-appropriate old-school irrigation layout.

But as Mike Young has pointed out, thousands of courses have a lean and hungry look with scruff instead of ruff every day out of simple necessity. Duplicating that style on a $400+ resort course by performing a multi-million-dollar comprehensive renovation doesn't seem much of a model for anything.

And what little feedback I've heard from my rank-and-file country club buddies is that Pinehurst spent a boatload of money to make their course look like a $25 public course. That's not a fair comment at all but I've heard several variations on that take and not one single word of approval or appreciation outside this forum.

[Jud_T]

Economics will be the force that reduces water consumption.

Bingo.  Everyone's wringing their hands over falling club memberships, yet many of those same clubs feel they won't attract members without overwatering.  Combine that with growing demand and dwindling supply of water...Something's got to give.

[BCowan]

Overwatering is hardly the reason why clubs are hurting.  As I do agree with Jason, especially in the west were dry hot summers are the norm, economics will play a big factor.  Big clubhouses with no one in them might give someday, even though places continue to spend money on them. 

[John Kavanaugh]

What no one seems to want to admit is that this redesign was simply an attempt to capture the market that Pinehurst has been losing to Bandon. You may see more courses in the Bandon model, like we have with Streamsong, but no one will be copying Pinehurst.  This last week was an epic fail, this week will be worse.

John, calling last week an "epic fail" is pretty strong.  How do you support that statement?

TS

Epic fail for a course hosting an Open.

There is not one single hole that a guest would look forward to play because of the Open.
There is not one single tee shot that a guest would want to duplicate because of the Open.
There is not one single approach that a guest would want to duplicate because of the Open.
There is not one single recovery shot that a guest would want to duplicate because of the Open.
There is not one single putt that a guest would want to duplicate because of the Open.

There are no memories to cherish from the tournament outside of a guy admittedly playing for second.

It's Thursday morning and the Golf Channel is broadcasting the Irish Open.  If the tournament was anything but an epic fail we could watch the women play this morning.

[BHoover]

It's Thursday morning and the Golf Channel is broadcasting the Irish Open.  If the tournament was anything but an epic fail we could watch the women play this morning.

Nice try.  But you are aware that Golf Channel does not have broadcast rights for the Women's Open?

[John Kavanaugh]

It's Thursday morning and the Golf Channel is broadcasting the Irish Open.  If the tournament was anything but an epic fail we could watch the women play this morning.

Nice try.  But you are aware that Golf Channel does not have broadcast rights for the Women's Open?

If there was demand we would be able to watch it somewhere.  Everyone in golf knew this was coming.  I fully admit to being greatly disappointed that I'm not seeing Pinehurst this morning.

[BHoover]

It's Thursday morning and the Golf Channel is broadcasting the Irish Open.  If the tournament was anything but an epic fail we could watch the women play this morning.

Nice try.  But you are aware that Golf Channel does not have broadcast rights for the Women's Open?

If there was demand we would be able to watch it somewhere.  Everyone in golf knew this was coming.  I fully admit to being greatly disappointed that I'm not seeing Pinehurst this morning.

So you honestly believe we aren't seeing all-day coverage of this Women's Open because last week's US Open was a failure?  Okay.   

[John Kavanaugh]

I think we would be having all day coverage of the Women's Open if people wanted to see it.  There are no lack of outlets available to feed tape that is being shot as we speak.  The demographic of people who watch golf at work when given the chance is very desirable.

Is there at least an internet feed?

[BHoover]

I think we would be having all day coverage of the Women's Open if people wanted to see it.  There are no lack of outlets available to feed tape that is being shot as we speak.  The demographic of people who watch golf at work when given the chance is very desirable.

Is there at least an internet feed?

I agree that there is no demand to see all-day coverage, but I think the lack of demand has ZERO to do with Pinehurst and last week's men's US Open.

[Mac Plumart]

I think we would be having all day coverage of the Women's Open if people wanted to see it.  There are no lack of outlets available to feed tape that is being shot as we speak.  The demographic of people who watch golf at work when given the chance is very desirable.

Is there at least an internet feed?

I agree that there is no demand to see all-day coverage, but I think the lack of demand has ZERO to do with Pinehurst and last week's men's US Open.

Agreed 100%, Brian.

[Ted Sturges]

Agree with Brian and Mac.

I also think the TV ratings for the Men's Open would have been a lot different if Eldrick had played, and was in contention.  Just sayin'...

TS

[John Kavanaugh]

ESPN is showing a rerun of Ohio State vs Wisconsin football.  Perhaps we are both wrong on this account.  If Pinehurst were an epic success it would be being broadcast at least on an internet feed like at the Masters.

Keeping to the subject, I do believe I answered why the tournament was an epic fail quite accurately.  Any dispute outside of TV rights?

[Joe Bausch]

Universal-HD was rebroadcasting the last week's US Open yesterday, I think.

But this might support John's claim as who the heck has that channel?!  Well, I think most Comcast customers do.

[Adam Clayman]

Ted, 1) I personally don't see single row catching back on UNLESS the site is sandy. That leaves relative few courses that should even consider it.

2) The television would still have had it's regrettable influence on the syndrome. Although, there could've been a larger core group of sportsmen created? Maybe that would've slowed down the 'aerial assault or die' movement, perhaps altering the focus of manufactures to design clubs that lower the skill level needed to hit it high and soft.  
  

Adam,
Why do you feel a single row system is more adapted for for sandy sites?

Randy, Both the aesthetic and playability works best on sand. The brown colors are natural on sand and when they integrate with the green of the fwy the transition to native is optimal (imo) when they look like the way an impressionists paints. Not the stark straight lines we see on so many arbitrary presentations. A good counter example to the ideal would be a place like Wolf Creek, in Mesquite Nv. where there was zero effort to blend the natural, with the obvious hand of man, golf course.  

JakaB, If you were in LA you could be watching in the a.m.

All your above justifications for the fail were based on television coverage. Thats where there was failure. Failure to capture the masterpiece thats on the ground.


It's probably too subtle for the typical Augusta syndrome boomer generation to get anyway.

[Mac Plumart]

Any dispute outside of TV rights?

Yes.  I dispute all of your points.  Saying there aren't holes at Pinehurst that people who love golf wouldn't want to play is absurd.  Maybe Adam is right and the broadcast didn't inspire people to run out and play the holes, but I don't think that is true.  But, then again, I've played there a couple of times and I know how good the golf is.

If you love golf and you don't want to try to play 5...particularly the approach shot...then I don't "get" you.

If you love golf and you don't want to try to play 9, you're missing out.

Same for 13, 15, 16, and 17.  (Heck, most of the holes...as they are really good).

And if you don't want to putt on 18 green...then I just don't understand where your mind is at.

It is such good golf from start to finish.  One interesting shot after another.

But, we all have our own tastes...

[hhuffines]

+1 Mac and Adam!

[Don Mahaffey]

Mr. Hutto,
Have you ever been to Pinehurst #2?

JakaB,
 Have you played Pinehurst #2 since the renovations?