Two post Pinehurst questions

[Ted Sturges]

Ran made an interesting point about the irrigation "less is more" approach in his thread.  This had been on my mind for the last several days.  It brings me to two questions, which I would be interested to hear other's views on.

1.  Will the "less is more", center line only irrigation approach have any long-lasting future impact on maintenance practices in the US?  A course as iconic as Pinehurst No. 2 has the potential, I believe, to affect what others do in this regard.  Will it?

2.  Had Pinehurst No. 2's caretakers over the years possessed the wisdom to leave the course the way it was presented in the 1940's (essentially what is being presented today), would this have influenced other golf courses in their approach to irrigation and maintenance practices?  Or...would the wall to wall green presentation at Augusta have still trumped them and influenced the massive inflation of maintenance budgets in this country anyway?

TS

[Adam Clayman]

Ted, 1) I personally don't see single row catching back on UNLESS the site is sandy. That leaves relative few courses that should even consider it.

2) The television would still have had it's regrettable influence on the syndrome. Although, there could've been a larger core group of sportsmen created? Maybe that would've slowed down the 'aerial assault or die' movement, perhaps altering the focus of manufactures to design clubs that lower the skill level needed to hit it high and soft.   
  

[Jeff Taylor]

Not with ANGC being shown every spring.

[Jud_T]

The real question is will Pinehurst be the catalyst for a movement that eventually influences Augusta.

[BCowan]

Augusta is Augusta.  They aren't going to change.  If they did there would be an uproar.  Brown is better and F&F doesn't have to be at every course.  We should hope that P2 stays in the rotation, that other courses that are similarly kept get added to the rota.  Hopefully someone on the golf channel can convey reasons (other than environmental) for F&F to the average golfer. 

1. Yes, i think some other courses will take notice
2. Yes, Augusta would still be wall to wall! 

[Terry Lavin]

The real question is will Pinehurst be the catalyst for a movement that eventually influences Augusta.

First, PH2 has to influence the rest of Pinehurst. The entire resort is on sand, so it first has to metastasize to the other courses there. If Sandhills courses don't quickly gravitate this way, PH2 may prove inconsequential in terms of the alluring sand/native environment that we champion.

[John Kavanaugh]

What no one seems to want to admit is that this redesign was simply an attempt to capture the market that Pinehurst has been losing to Bandon. You may see more courses in the Bandon model, like we have with Streamsong, but no one will be copying Pinehurst.  This last week was an epic fail, this week will be worse.

[Mac Plumart]

Pinehurst just got the ball rolling. A lot more work needs to be done.  It will take a lot of time and effort.

On Augusta... with their rye grass, is it even possible to have the same look as Pinehurst?

[BCowan]

A Woman's Open at Mid Pines would be cool.  The more different sectors of golf see the conditions on TV/person the better they can relate to it. 

[Randy Thompson]

Ted, 1) I personally don't see single row catching back on UNLESS the site is sandy. That leaves relative few courses that should even consider it.

2) The television would still have had it's regrettable influence on the syndrome. Although, there could've been a larger core group of sportsmen created? Maybe that would've slowed down the 'aerial assault or die' movement, perhaps altering the focus of manufactures to design clubs that lower the skill level needed to hit it high and soft.   
  

Adam,
Why do you feel a single row system is more adapted for for sandy sites?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB,

I know for a fact that Boards are discussing aspects of PH#2's presentation in terms of water use and the areas adjacent to fairways, so don't be too quick to promote the continuance of the status quo.

[John Connolly]

Stacy Lewis is certainly "down with brown".

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/lewis-rates-pinehurst-9-out-10/

[Jud_T]

Obviously Augusta isn't likely to be at the forefront of this movement.  The question is whether it's possible in some distant future of environmental time and space for the April barrage of bright green grass and flowers to be seen as an anachronism?

[Jason Topp]

JakaB,

I know for a fact that Boards are discussing aspects of PH#2's presentation in terms of water use and the areas adjacent to fairways, so don't be too quick to promote the continuance of the status quo.

Here is one example of a course following in the footsteps:

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/263553111.html

[Scott Weersing]

What no one seems to want to admit is that this redesign was simply an attempt to capture the market that Pinehurst has been losing to Bandon. You may see more courses in the Bandon model, like we have with Streamsong, but no one will be copying Pinehurst.  This last week was an epic fail, this week will be worse.

I doubt anyone on the East Coast would go to Bandon over Pinehurst because golfers here in Virginia have only heard about Bandon in passing.

I do think that Pinehurst is trying to be different than Myrtle Beach and may capture some of the golfers who would go to South Carolina.

Will anyone try to copy Pinehurst? I think the courses in California with water restrictions will by copying Pinehurst but not on purpose.

If Rustic Canyon got more rain, it could be a lot like Pinehurst with just fairways and no rough. But Rustic does have rough on the sides of fairways to keep shots from bouncing and rolling off the course. I think you need some parallel holes to make the no rough concept work, or otherwise you have shots going OB. Were there any OB shots in this US Open? I still remember the OB shots at Merion.

[John Kavanaugh]

What no one seems to want to admit is that this redesign was simply an attempt to capture the market that Pinehurst has been losing to Bandon. You may see more courses in the Bandon model, like we have with Streamsong, but no one will be copying Pinehurst.  This last week was an epic fail, this week will be worse.

I doubt anyone on the East Coast would go to Bandon over Pinehurst because golfers here in Virginia have only heard about Bandon in passing.

Odd that Bandon is where I joined you and your friends on a buddie trip. Pinehurst is now nothing more than a playground for the rich. I do believe that golfing demographic is well aware of Bandon and Streamsong.

I honestly am floored by the notion that this was the first US Open played on brown fairways. It will take some patience on my part to see the evidence of what I believe is a bait and switch.  Every course in the country can be firm and brown for a month of excellent play. The proof will be in the pudding, ie...mud

[Ted Sturges]

What no one seems to want to admit is that this redesign was simply an attempt to capture the market that Pinehurst has been losing to Bandon. You may see more courses in the Bandon model, like we have with Streamsong, but no one will be copying Pinehurst.  This last week was an epic fail, this week will be worse.

John, calling last week an "epic fail" is pretty strong.  How do you support that statement?

TS

[Don Mahaffey]

JakaB,

I know for a fact that Boards are discussing aspects of PH#2's presentation in terms of water use and the areas adjacent to fairways, so don't be too quick to promote the continuance of the status quo.

Here is one example of a course following in the footsteps:

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/263553111.html

Wow, that was quick, but just goes to show this is not a new issue or idea, just brought to the forefront by the folks at PH.

[Randy Thompson]

JakaB,

I know for a fact that Boards are discussing aspects of PH#2's presentation in terms of water use and the areas adjacent to fairways, so don't be too quick to promote the continuance of the status quo.

Here is one example of a course following in the footsteps:

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/263553111.html

Wow, that was quick, but just goes to show this is not a new issue or idea, just brought to the forefront by the folks at PH.

and finially the USGA behind it. Too bad it toook a workd crisis to bring it to light!

[Mike Hendren]

Pinehurst just got the ball rolling. A lot more work needs to be done.  It will take a lot of time and effort.

On Augusta... with their rye grass, is it even possible to have the same look as Pinehurst?

Funny how everyone ignores your spot on question Mac.  The answer is "no" unless they go back to bermuda which would not likely recover by the first week of April.   I read an article years ago where Palmer and Nicklaus were talking about the frequent problem of mud on their ball from the bare bermuda fairways at Augusta.

Bogey

[Paul Gray]

What no one seems to want to admit is that this redesign was simply an attempt to capture the market that Pinehurst has been losing to Bandon. You may see more courses in the Bandon model, like we have with Streamsong, but no one will be copying Pinehurst.  This last week was an epic fail, this week will be worse.

I doubt anyone on the East Coast would go to Bandon over Pinehurst because golfers here in Virginia have only heard about Bandon in passing.

Odd that Bandon is where I joined you and your friends on a buddie trip. Pinehurst is now nothing more than a playground for the rich. I do believe that golfing demographic is well aware of Bandon and Streamsong.

I honestly am floored by the notion that this was the first US Open played on brown fairways. It will take some patience on my part to see the evidence of what I believe is a bait and switch.  Every course in the country can be firm and brown for a month of excellent play. The proof will be in the pudding, ie...mud

John,

I fear you'r missing one of the fundamental qualities of the game which long ago seemingly vanished from the American golf psyche; namely, seasonality. With that in mind, why would you suggest that less irrigation would simply result in mud? Baked hard soil, yes, but not soggy mud. Not in the summer at least when irrigation would be the only cause of muddy lies. Furthermore, the less you water in the summer, the more likely you are to have lush, as opposed to waterlogged, in the winter.

If there's an argument for irrigation anywhere it's at hot, sandy sites. Why would you bemoan drying fairways in the summer on a clay based northern site?

[Carl Rogers]

What no one seems to want to admit is that this redesign was simply an attempt to capture the market that Pinehurst has been losing to Bandon. You may see more courses in the Bandon model, like we have with Streamsong, but no one will be copying Pinehurst.  This last week was an epic fail, this week will be worse.

epic fail?? please elaborate.

[Carl Rogers]

When will Pine Needles join the P#2 & Mid Pines look?

[Andrew Buck]

Pinehurst just got the ball rolling. A lot more work needs to be done.  It will take a lot of time and effort.

On Augusta... with their rye grass, is it even possible to have the same look as Pinehurst?

Funny how everyone ignores your spot on question Mac.  The answer is "no" unless they go back to bermuda which would not likely recover by the first week of April.   I read an article years ago where Palmer and Nicklaus were talking about the frequent problem of mud on their ball from the bare bermuda fairways at Augusta.

Bogey

That is absolutely correct.  There are seasons of the year, climates, and types of grasses that don't allow all courses to follow lead in the manner presented at Pinehurst.  

I think it's great to change the perception of brown, but it's just as important to try and educate on firmness, regardless of color.  

A question on rye grass for the experts among us.  I know many southern courses, Augusta included, overseed with Rye in the winter months.  My limited experience is that these overseeded fairways can be me kept at a height similar to bent in the north, say 1/2 inch.  In the north, I do love the look of rye grass fairways, but in these conditions on clay it doesn't seem like it's wise to go much lower than 1 inch, 3/4th if you push it.

Is this just a factor of southern climates only caring about the rye in the winter when it's cooler, and bermuda will take over when it gets hot?

[John Crowley]

Given the attention span of the American public in general, the PH2 model may not have legs in the near term. Next April the Masters will again reinforce the wall to wall green ethic in the majority of American golfer’s minds.

Mac’s point about Augusta’s turf and soil conditions alone may preclude a significant change there.

PH2 like conditions could take hold in locations with the right soils and climate. Mainly in the Southwest and coastal areas.

Brian Horgan of the University of Minnesota does make a good case for courses in other locations making an effort to move in the PH2 direction, even if getting all the way there may not be possible.

Brian has over the last few years convinced several Supers in Minnesota of the agronomic and playability benefits of the “Science of Green”. He is a turf scientist and an excellent communicator.

Some MN private clubs have made some attempts but, even enlightened Green committees are constrained by the general perceptions of members who view Augusta as the standard.

It will take that rare combination of a strong Super, a brave Green committee, the right soil and climate and an enlightened membership (or ownership) for the “science of Green to take hold where it can.