[Mike Sweeney]

Other than my friend Jim Sullivan who obviously has never set his fancy country club shoes on the single line sprinkler system at Walnut Lane  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/walnut-lane/

the renovation at Pinehurst seems to be a hit. Reality is, it takes money to do these renovations and some other good karma. I think you need:

• a sandy site
• not too much wind or exposure to wind
• money
• an ability to bring in new players/members because you will lose some

Here are my suggestions for other courses that should consider/could consider a Pinehurst style "Back to the Future" style renovation. They are:

1. Bethpage Black - It is Long Island, it is sandy, it is big, it is brawny.... Can't find an old picture but that is a sandy site. Get rid of the "old US Open" conditions.

2. Hollywood GC - The Doak Team work looks great, and I always enjoy playing there but please pull the old aerial off the wall of the Men's Locker Room. That was North Jersey Pine Valley back in the day....

3. Mountain Lake - Okay, so Streamsong is now the "no rough" Poster Child of Central Florida, and I have to include one course from the MacRaynor family.

I love playing all three of these courses, but I want more. Call me greedy  

Others?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Besides being geographically challenged (Hollywood is not in North Jersey) I agree with you.

GCGC would also benefit from removing turf and returning to conditions circa 1936.

Mike Davis's comments on golfers enjoying more roll, more fun, by using less water may just start a trend that many on this site have supported for years.

Let's hope so.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

Besides being geographically challenged (Hollywood is not in North Jersey) I agree with you.

Pat,

When you grow up in Philly, everything north of "William Penn's Hat" (FatBaldyDrummer - you can Google it) is Canada so give me some credit for some adjustments  

[Paul Gray]

There will be numerous horrendous errors made in trying to replicate Pinehurst simply because the people doing it will be focusing on appearance,  rather than playability. Nothing new there. As I've said before, you can teach a parrot to talk but it can't grasp language.

The next step I guess is to get people to understand that all golf courses are unique entities and all you can focus on is firm conditions and recovering opportunities which are more than simply binary options.

[JESII]

I love the renovation but I'm afraid JakaB is going to be right...

From Ran's "isn't this what we've been waiting for thread..."Back when I played as a civilian the rough was non-existant.  If you choose to play in the future expect the scruff to be worse than what you see today.  Just what we been waiting for, a course tougher for us than what was presented at the US Open."


Put it this way, I want to play #2 more now than I ever have before but I doubt it'll meet my expectations if I don't get there in the next couple of years.

[Bill_McBride]

We have acres of sandy waste at Pensacola CC since our new course was built after Hurricane Ivan.   Any club that follows the Pinehurst model needs to have a healthy maintenance budget and not shirk on keeping the sandy wastes free of weeds and volunteer pines.   It can get out of control and be labor intensive to restore.  

I thought everything north of Pine Valley was North Jersey!

[Mike Sweeney]

I thought everything north of Pine Valley was North Jersey!

Pat Mucci has never been accused of being the sharpest tool in the tool shed 

Jim Sullivan,

Okay, okay I am probably drinking too much of the HD juice. I had a call today and the new-Pinehurst was called an 8.5 on The Doak Scale by The Black Hand and he/she has been around

Not sure about Philly, but it would be a tough weekend for a US Open in New England:

[jeffwarne]

Palmetto's a perfect candidate

 installed irrigation in 1988 and Augustaized it.
Had many Pine valley/Pinehurst (now) like areas that were grassed over/maintained

Most of you have played a different eye cahdied bunker version post Gil Hanse/Tom Doak, but I certainly miss the burny fairways and ragged sandy rough pre 1988.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There will be numerous horrendous errors made in trying to replicate Pinehurst simply because the people doing it will be focusing on appearance,  rather than playability. Nothing new there. As I've said before, you can teach a parrot to talk but it can't grasp language.

Paul,

It depends upon each club's agenda.

Certainly the reduction of water usage can't be viewed as a bad thing.
I don't think anyone is advocating turning the water off.

What I've gleened from conversations, comments and text is the prudent reduction of water usage and the gradual expansion of fairway width.
It's a concept that leads to more enjoyable golf.

The next step I guess is to get people to understand that all golf courses are unique entities and all you can focus on is firm conditions and recovering opportunities which are more than simply binary options.

Certainly viewers are enamored by what they're watching and the announcers have been highly complimentary of the conditions and their advocacy of same of same is rather strident.

The goal is a noble one, how it's achieved by each club is up to them.

[Mike_Young]

The problem I see is find a supt that will go for it.  My club, which is a DR course and  which is run by frat boys, has seen them  sitting in the grill laughing at Pinehurst all week.  Sounds good but supts will not put themselves on the line for it...

[Ed Oden]

Crystal Downs

[John Connolly]

Mike,

What do they find amusing?

[Buck Wolter]

Crystal Downs

I was thinking both Crystal Downs and Kingsley. There are a few areas at Kingsley where it has this sort of look and feel; left on 13 between 14 and 15 and left on 15. I wouldn't complain if Kingsley used it more --between 3 and 4, right on 7, between 10 and 18 and left on 17 please.  I've only played CD a couple times but I think it would be much more enjoyable with the Pinehurst treatment, especially on the front 9.

[Tom_Doak]

Crystal Downs

I was thinking both Crystal Downs and Kingsley. There are a few areas at Kingsley where it has this sort of look and feel; left on 13 between 14 and 15 and left on 15. I wouldn't complain if Kingsley used it more --between 3 and 4, right on 7, between 10 and 18 and left on 17 please.  I've only played CD a couple times but I think it would be much more enjoyable with the Pinehurst treatment, especially on the front 9.

There are two problems with Crystal Downs.  First, it's not nearly as sandy as you imagine.  (Kingsley is built on sand.)

Second, both courses are quite hilly, and if you opened up areas of sand you would have tremendous erosion issues every time you had a two-inch rain.  Pine Valley deals with those washouts every time it rains, as they can afford to.  But it works a lot better at Pinehurst and Streamsong (both relatively flat) than it does on hills.

Sorry to burst the bubble, but this look is only applicable in certain places.  I would love to see Oyster Harbors go for it, and Hollywood could get partway there, if the membership was on board.  But they have gone so far the other direction that it will be hard to pull them back.  Member-run clubs are a much different animal than a place like Pinehurst where one owner makes the call.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I thought everything north of Pine Valley was North Jersey!

Seeing as how Philadelphians think that Pine Valley is in Pennsylvania, if not Philadelphia, I can see how you'd be confused.

Unless of course, you consider everything north of Miami to be the north.
However, I wouldn't go around calling good ole boys from Georgia, "Yankees"

Pat Mucci has never been accused of being the sharpest tool in the tool shed 

Just a little sharper than those keeping me company in the shed

Jim Sullivan,

Okay, okay I am probably drinking too much of the HD juice. I had a call today and the new-Pinehurst was called an 8.5 on The Doak Scale by The Black Hand and he/she has been around

Not sure about Philly, but it would be a tough weekend for a US Open in New England:

[mike_beene]

Pat, the good ole Georgia boys would never consider Miami the south. It's the other Yankeeland to quote a Bulldog I know.

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

Agreed. Interpretations will differ; some good, some bad. The point is about education. Clubs need to understand the difference between a look and philosophy. Or, if you like, the importance of substance over style.

Mike,

Educate the heathens!

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

What do they find amusing?

The look.  As much as some of us may appreciate what has been done, most will not take the time to try and understand it.  Let's face it, if a lesser known club were to do such out of necessity it would not be viewed in the same light.  This is a one time thing ans I don't expect to see it catching on.  Supts will not let it or will vendors.  I actually don't expect Pinehurst to keep it for more than a few years.  Of coure it will be a subtle evolution and not a grand announcement

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, the good ole Georgia boys would never consider Miami the south. It's the other Yankeeland to quote a Bulldog I know.

Mike,

You're thinking of "Miami Beach"

[Mike_Young]

Pat, the good ole Georgia boys would never consider Miami the south. It's the other Yankeeland to quote a Bulldog I know.

Mike,

You're thinking of "Miami Beach"

My wife is from Miami and she had to move to Georgia...way too any yankees...

[Don Mahaffey]

I don't think the takeaway from P2 should be trying to copy the look, more about adopting the attitude. What works at P2 works at P2, what works at your course will be different.
I just signed off on a completed irrigation project. The system was designed around using soil moisture readings to schedule water apps. The super is used to making scheduling decisions based on his eye, and once we started using soil data, he is learning that he had his soil moisture 50-70% higher then he needed to grow good golf turf. Clubs all across the country use meters to measure their greens, but the fairways are where the water is really saved and the savings can be dramatic.  Even if you don't have the soils or natural flora of P2, you can still take some lessons away from what they are doing.

[Jud_T]

Don,

Thanks.  This is the real lesson here.  Each club can find the inflection point where they minimize water usage and maximize playing conditions. Why the playing surface doesn't take precedence over the "look" of golf courses on this side of the pond is beyond me.  Perhaps it's because most nice clubs are in tony suburbs and the wealth of aesthetic knowledge only extends to suburban lawns from the 50s.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Don, et. al.,

What would be interesting is to see the water volumes each club uses today, versus 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990 and 2010.

[Paul Gray]

I don't think the takeaway from P2 should be trying to copy the look, more about adopting the attitude. What works at P2 works at P2, what works at your course will be different.
I just signed off on a completed irrigation project. The system was designed around using soil moisture readings to schedule water apps. The super is used to making scheduling decisions based on his eye, and once we started using soil data, he is learning that he had his soil moisture 50-70% higher then he needed to grow good golf turf. Clubs all across the country use meters to measure their greens, but the fairways are where the water is really saved and the savings can be dramatic.  Even if you don't have the soils or natural flora of P2, you can still take some lessons away from what they are doing.

Don,

Exactly what I'm saying. Until people understand that this is about a philosophy, rather than a look, there will be endless errors in attempting to copy Pinehurst.

[Paul Gray]

Brian,

I agree. There are plenty of cheaper courses which appeal to me far more than the 'mutton dressed as lamb' venues which pride themselves in throwing money at thick greenery.

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