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Don Mahaffey

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #100 on: June 19, 2014, 03:10:22 PM »
OK, I think I understand.
Why I have a little more faith that it will spur change is this; I've never seen so many Supts so willing to go public and embrace this sort of look and irrigation and I believe that is possible because of all the favorable publicity. When so many are saying it is so good, it is easier to stand and say, I agree.

Everyone thinks it starts with the golfers, or maybe the architects. I think it starts with the supers and the more ammunition they have the easier it is to fight the fight.

JESII

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #101 on: June 19, 2014, 03:14:08 PM »
Thanks Don...I'm happy to stand with the Supts anytime and certainly didn't want to imply the Supt at Pinehurst is leading a can't win mission. I also admire their courage in trying.

Grant Saunders

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #102 on: June 19, 2014, 04:38:14 PM »
I currently manage a single row system and have managed multi row systems in the past.

The main drawbacks of the single row (our heads have an 18 metre throw) is the definite doubling up of water in the centre versus the edges of the irrigation corridor and the relative lack of flexibility in fairways widths it provides. You are essentially locked into a mostly parallel fairway shape with limited scope to widen areas beyond that throw. It is however achievable if you wish to add the occasional lateral line and head where you require it. For this reason alone, I believe a 2 wire control path to be an essential part of a single row system.

Some advantages include: less heads to worry about for trimming, maintenance, future replacement, they are easier to locate, minimal rough receiving unwanted irrigation, less stations to program, less potential heads jammed on, quicker and easier to perform a system audit.

Multi row systems certainly (in my opinion) offer a more even coverage and greater flexibility to manipulate your water application and tailor it to the different water requirements of areas such as hills or low spots. You also have greater options based on the effects of wind. The big downside is the fact that they require more upfront cost but also they require a lot of time and labour to maintain for many of the same reasons a single row system doesn't.

My preference would be to have more heads but not excessively so. Maybe 2 rows narrowed to 1 in places would be enough to offer possibilities without getting too complicated. Within those 2 rows a combination of different nozzles offering the ability to increase or decrease the radius of the arc once it becomes evident where it  is required.

Regarding single row, I would like to see a design incorporating full circle heads for every second spacing and then in between have adjustable arc heads with dual nozzles that only irrigate the areas being missed by the full circle heads.

Please excuse my rough diagram:



At the end of the day, it is the person controlling the system that dictates the amount of water being applied not the number of irrigation heads.



Steve Okula

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #103 on: June 19, 2014, 05:36:52 PM »
Josh,

You've hit  on a good point.

Many single line systems have heads feeding off lines at 90 degrees from the main line.

With wide fairways, that's almost a mandate.

Jim Sullivan,

The reason that you don't go all the way has several answers.

1.  This is in the Sand Hills of North Carolina and it gets very hot in the summer.
2.  This is a resort, not a private club, and it needs to attract golfers, vis a vis the quality of the product
3   Grass's need for water heightens as the blade is cut shorter.
4   Would you have the greens stimping at 6 in the summer ?

Before automated irrigation systems were the norm, greens and tees received the water they needed.

Regarding #3, in the interest of accuracy, grass needs more water at a higher height of cut. More leaf tissue equals larger water requirement.

That said, taller heights of cut tend to produce deeper root systems, so the plant has more access to water further down in the soil, which may offset the increased need.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #104 on: June 19, 2014, 05:43:51 PM »
The interesting fact to me is this entire thread could have been eliminated if the USGA and Pinehurst resort had "painted" the fairways like they have during the winter dormancy periods (something about the paying customers demanding green).  Those who are upset about the look would be happy because everything would look uniform and it would have the same great health and playing characteristics it does in it's current state.

That being said I'm sure it was a thought out decision and personally I'm glad they decided not to paint the fairways.  If they had painted the fairways many people who assume green means healthy brown means dead would not have the opportunity to be informed on the topic.

I should add I'm not sure you can paint during the summer as the paint supposedly allows the leaves to breath normally but somehow keeps them warmer (which is desirable in the winter).  This article seems to say you can paint in the summer drought conditions.
http://www.turfmagazine.com/article-2086.aspx

Ben Sims

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2014, 08:39:22 PM »
It's pretty clear to me that those that aren't impressed with P2 will never be. A conspicuously consuming lot we are, us Americans. It's embarrassing that more of us aren't on board with reductions in water, equipment, cost, fuel, etc.

If those in this thread that continually want to say, "I think it's great, but..." want to be right, fine.  I understand as much as anybody how good it feels to win Internet arguments. My question is this, why are you looking for reasons to marginalize what was done at Pinehurst if you're so impressed by it?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 08:42:00 PM by Ben Sims »

JESII

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #106 on: June 19, 2014, 09:01:39 PM »
Ben,

Other than your two or three contributions this has been a productive and respectful thread. Feel free to observe from the sidelines.

William_G

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #107 on: June 19, 2014, 09:10:26 PM »
It's pretty clear to me that those that aren't impressed with P2 will never be. A conspicuously consuming lot we are, us Americans. It's embarrassing that more of us aren't on board with reductions in water, equipment, cost, fuel, etc.


no doubt....the ugly American...just give me a cart and green grass  :(
It's all about the golf!

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #108 on: June 19, 2014, 09:17:55 PM »
Thanks Don...I'm happy to stand with the Supts anytime and certainly didn't want to imply the Supt at Pinehurst is leading a can't win mission. I also admire their courage in trying.

Except that is what you have repeatedly implied. And they aren't trying, they are doing it...as hard as that is for you and others to believe. I'm astounded by so many of the responses here including your message to Ben. i don't know you but you must be a hell of a turf and irrigation expert.

How in the world can you describe some of your comments as respectful?

I've had my say. Carry on with all the reasons why what is working can't possibly work.

JESII

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #109 on: June 19, 2014, 09:22:59 PM »
Don,

Never once said "can't"!

I'm no irrigation expert and never pretended to be. I've expressed my opinions and asked questions, nothing more and nothing less.

jeffwarne

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #110 on: June 19, 2014, 09:41:36 PM »
So I'm in the car this morning listening to Matt Adams on SiriusXM who has been championing Pinehurst's renovation.
a caller from California (Bay area) comes on and says it's an embarrassment that our National Open is being played on brown grass and that it's ugly and he wants to see the US Open on manicured courses-says he goes to the Blue Angels airshows and loves the modern planes-hates when they use any old planes.
Must've used the words manicured, green, and modern a dozen times.
Draws a comparison to his brand new modern car and says nobody drives a car from the 1940's.
I love old planes and old cars, and would drive a 1940's acr in a heartbeat if I had the means and knowhow to do a Crenshaw and Coore like restoration on a vintage car and make it work as well as Pinehurst does.

I nearly wrecked the car dialing in to scream at his comments, but got a busy signal ::) ::)
probably a good thing ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ben Sims

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #111 on: June 19, 2014, 09:45:59 PM »
This passive aggressive way of "discussing" is getting ridiculous. Repeated attempts by genuine experts (I'm certainly NOT referring to myself) to discuss and explain the nuts and bolts of Pinehurst's irrigation and turf quality have been met with never-ending doubt. At some point, if you're really here to learn, shut the heck up and learn. But continuing to defend your point, caveat emptor your inexperience and lack of knowledge, then double down on your point once a reply from an expert has been given is the exact recipe for shutting down discussion.  If I were Joe Hancock or Don Mahaffey, I'd run from this thread.

I understand the need by golf business big dogs to marginalize what has been a homerun from a maintenance perspective at Pinehurst. I can't--for the life of me--figure out why some on an Internet site feel the need to marginalize what can only be described as a success story for our game. 

Keith Phillips

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #112 on: June 19, 2014, 10:08:57 PM »
Sad that Ben and Don and others have described respectful non-professional commentators as being 'passive-aggressive' or dis-'respectful'.  Give me a break!  I think what some interested laymen are asking is "is a single-row system really the optimal solution"?  We've had two seasons since the restoration and already people are saying this is an unusual weather pattern??  This is hardly a 100-year drought!  I've said before and will repeat that I love #2 and love the work that has been done - I think the course is challenging yet eminently fair - having said that, I would expect that, upon reflection, the powers that be will modify the irrigation equipment to allow broader fairway coverage...nobody has yet answered my earlier question of whether courses like Seminole or Muirfield (understanding the differences) have installed single-row irrigation... that's because NOBODY HAS and nobody with the economic resources of a Pinehurst, or a Bandon or Streamsong, ever will again!

Ben Sims

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #113 on: June 19, 2014, 10:26:48 PM »
Sad that Ben and Don and others have described respectful non-professional commentators as being 'passive-aggressive' or dis-'respectful'.  Give me a break!  I think what some interested laymen are asking is "is a single-row system really the optimal solution"?  We've had two seasons since the restoration and already people are saying this is an unusual weather pattern??  This is hardly a 100-year drought!  I've said before and will repeat that I love #2 and love the work that has been done - I think the course is challenging yet eminently fair - having said that, I would expect that, upon reflection, the powers that be will modify the irrigation equipment to allow broader fairway coverage...nobody has yet answered my earlier question of whether courses like Seminole or Muirfield (understanding the differences) have installed single-row irrigation... that's because NOBODY HAS and nobody with the economic resources of a Pinehurst, or a Bandon or Streamsong, ever will again!

Keith,

The implication as been made by non-professional commentators that Pinehurst has made an ill-advised mistake. No explanation has been sufficient as to why those that made the decisions got it right. A few days of watching a tournament on television made experts of a few hobbyists. I understand discussion. What I don't understand is continuing to eschew solid knowledge in favor of conjecture and implication.   

Sean_A

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #114 on: June 20, 2014, 02:56:01 AM »
I don't see any passive-aggressive discussion, just honest disagreement.

I was under the impression that single row decision was specifically part of the renovation.  Meaning, the resort is trying to capture (and perhaps more importantly) and retain a certain fairway width leading to sandy areas as was the case those many moons ago.  It makes perfect sense to use single row if one goal of the renovation is to keep the width static.  Removing the decision making from future supers is very wise imo because eventually reasons for doing stuff is forgotten and a new cycle of off message maintenance begins again.  That may make Pinehurst quite unique in the single row debate.  The advantages and disadvantages of this approach exist, but if there is an over-riding concept at work here, why would folks not think single row is a good idea? 

I have no idea if it will be a success or not, that will depend on the consumers.  However, I have no doubt the resort can control the vegetation in the sandy areas, its a question money.  I do think controlling that growth is far more important than worrying about the edges of the fairways being a different colour to the centres of the fairways.  I am astonished that people even brought this up.  I saw it on tv and took no notice because I thought the transition zones being browned to flow into the waste areas was done on purpose - and imo rightfully so.  How can a super create a natural looking course with a stark transition line between fairway and non-fairway?  This is one of the biggest issues I have with desert courses, the dividing line is far too obvious and it looks too much like a garden rather than a golf course.  Jeepers, even in good gardens there will be areas where the garden spills over into the lawn or path - why do you that is the case - just poor gardening? 

I also don't believe supers can (or will?) control the throw of water as well some suggest and I don't think it is reasonable to suggest that this possible.  Of course, if larger areas are covered than where water is desired, water will eventually be applied to those areas either by carelessness, a poorly functioning system or supers thinking its a good idea.  Its incredible to me that some would say this won't or can't happen.  I can't tell you how many times I have seen rough watered when it wasn't necessary.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #115 on: June 20, 2014, 04:14:19 AM »
I don't see any passive-aggressive discussion, just honest disagreement.

I was under the impression that single row decision was specifically part of the renovation.  Meaning, the resort is trying to capture (and perhaps more importantly) and retain a certain fairway width leading to sandy areas as was the case those many moons ago.  It makes perfect sense to use single row if one goal of the renovation is to keep the width static.  Removing the decision making from future supers is very wise imo because eventually reasons for doing stuff is forgotten and a new cycle of off message maintenance begins again.  That may make Pinehurst quite unique in the single row debate.  The advantages and disadvantages of this approach exist, but if there is an over-riding concept at work here, why would folks not think single row is a good idea?  

I have no idea if it will be a success or not, that will depend on the consumers.  However, I have no doubt the resort can control the vegetation in the sandy areas, its a question money.  I do think controlling that growth is far more important than worrying about the edges of the fairways being a different colour to the centres of the fairways.  I am astonished that people even brought this up.  I saw it on tv and took no notice because I thought the transition zones being browned to flow into the waste areas was done on purpose - and imo rightfully so.  How can a super create a natural looking course with a stark transition line between fairway and non-fairway?  This is one of the biggest issues I have with desert courses, the dividing line is far too obvious and it looks too much like a garden rather than a golf course.  Jeepers, even in good gardens there will be areas where the garden spills over into the lawn or path - why do you that is the case - just poor gardening?  

I also don't believe supers can (or will?) control the throw of water as well some suggest and I don't think it is reasonable to suggest that this possible.  Of course, if larger areas are covered than where water is desired, water will eventually be applied to those areas either by carelessness, a poorly functioning system or supers thinking its a good idea.  Its incredible to me that some would say this won't or can't happen.  I can't tell you how many times I have seen rough watered when it wasn't necessary.    

Ciao


Sean, as usual, has cut to the chase of this discussion. I hate to keep referring back to something I wrote, but I'd like to highlight again one line Bob Farren said in the piece I quoted earlier: "We want the grassing lines to be defined by the irrigation throw".

In other words, this whole process was very carefully thought through. Tom D has talked a lot on here about how he and his crew work hard to blur the lines between fairway, green and rough, and how he hates straight lines. This is exactly the same: by ensuring that, as you get further from the centreline, the turf will get less water, you ensure a progressive transition from maintained turf to native, not a sharp line (which is what you would get if you had a row of part circle heads down the outside of your intended fairway).

To me this is what is most radical of all about the Pinehurst project. Everyone in the industry talks the talk when it comes to water reduction etc, but very few embrace this concept of blurred lines - for the overwhelming majority, 'definition' is a great thing and to be sought after, and if anyone points out that straight lines are unnatural and jarring, you end up with the curving fairway cut so many courses use, not an improvement imo.

It is true that this blurring of the edge does potentially have a negative impact on strategy when the design of a hole calls for the ideal tee shot to be placed close to one edge, but only if the _playing_ quality (as opposed to the aesthetic quality) of the turf is worse as a result, and I haven't heard too many voices suggesting that was so at Pinehurst.

Of course, whether or not this approach is a good idea is, in the end, a value judgement, and thus anyone can legitimately disagree. What I think is not debatable is that the restoration project achieved the goals it set out to achieve. None of this happened by accident.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 04:16:10 AM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

JESII

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #116 on: June 20, 2014, 08:29:04 AM »
Sean and Adam,

Thanks for those posts. I think I better understand what they're trying to accomplish and certainly wish them luck.

I wasn't thinking of the outer fairways as a transition zone. As some know, the color brown didn't/doesn't bother me at all.



Ben,

No passive-aggressive here...what you read is what you get. I'll tell you exactly what I'm thinking if you take it at face value.

archie_struthers

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #117 on: June 20, 2014, 08:32:17 AM »
 ;D



I saw Dick Bator, the superintendent at Pine Valley and later at Atlantic City CC turn off all the heads to  control water. He then hand watered the whole joint as he saw fit . Of course it requires lots of  labor and training to do it but he firmed up both courses and had them perfect.

I imagine the playing conditions were similar at Pinehurst last week .

Carl Nichols

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #118 on: June 20, 2014, 02:41:05 PM »
Approximately how much did it cost them to change from the old system to the single row? 

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #119 on: June 20, 2014, 06:47:41 PM »
I believe the new irrigation system cost in the region of half a million dollars.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Keith Phillips

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #120 on: June 20, 2014, 11:05:26 PM »
hmmm...$500k sounds light - I would have guessed double that, at least with the variable greenside irrigation

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #121 on: June 21, 2014, 03:03:11 AM »
hmmm...$500k sounds light - I would have guessed double that, at least with the variable greenside irrigation

Why? No pump house costs and much fewer heads in single line irrigation. I would have thought it could have been done for quite a bit less.

And to answer the question at least about Muirfield. It really does not need fairway irrigation or at least the Scottish one doesn't.

Jon
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 03:08:37 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Paul Gray

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #122 on: June 21, 2014, 05:44:57 PM »
So I'm in the car this morning listening to Matt Adams on SiriusXM who has been championing Pinehurst's renovation.
a caller from California (Bay area) comes on and says it's an embarrassment that our National Open is being played on brown grass and that it's ugly and he wants to see the US Open on manicured courses-says he goes to the Blue Angels airshows and loves the modern planes-hates when they use any old planes.
Must've used the words manicured, green, and modern a dozen times.
Draws a comparison to his brand new modern car and says nobody drives a car from the 1940's.
I love old planes and old cars, and would drive a 1940's acr in a heartbeat if I had the means and knowhow to do a Crenshaw and Coore like restoration on a vintage car and make it work as well as Pinehurst does.

I nearly wrecked the car dialing in to scream at his comments, but got a busy signal ::) ::)
probably a good thing ;)

A perfect example of why come folks will just never 'get it' and why, for all that everyone is entitled to an opinion, some opinions are always worth more than others. Reminds me of a women I saw on TV recently on one of those endless house buying programmes my good lady seems to love. The women said, with a completely straight face, that she wanted a new build house as she didn't 'do second hand.'  ::)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 07:07:06 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

MClutterbuck

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Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #123 on: June 25, 2014, 11:20:53 AM »

In other words, this whole process was very carefully thought through. Tom D has talked a lot on here about how he and his crew work hard to blur the lines between fairway, green and rough, and how he hates straight lines. This is exactly the same: by ensuring that, as you get further from the centreline, the turf will get less water, you ensure a progressive transition from maintained turf to native, not a sharp line (which is what you would get if you had a row of part circle heads down the outside of your intended fairway).

To me this is what is most radical of all about the Pinehurst project. Everyone in the industry talks the talk when it comes to water reduction etc, but very few embrace this concept of blurred lines - for the overwhelming majority, 'definition' is a great thing and to be sought after, and if anyone points out that straight lines are unnatural and jarring, you end up with the curving fairway cut so many courses use, not an improvement imo.

It is true that this blurring of the edge does potentially have a negative impact on strategy when the design of a hole calls for the ideal tee shot to be placed close to one edge, but only if the _playing_ quality (as opposed to the aesthetic quality) of the turf is worse as a result, and I haven't heard too many voices suggesting that was so at Pinehurst.

Of course, whether or not this approach is a good idea is, in the end, a value judgement, and thus anyone can legitimately disagree. What I think is not debatable is that the restoration project achieved the goals it set out to achieve. None of this happened by accident.

I am all for the progression and blurring of the edges, and avoiding the straight lines. But I do believe you should be able to do this without the super green artificial line in the middle, by adding more heads. They can be smaller heads, and they dont need to be a full wall to wall system.

I would add as well that some of the native areas at P2 do have a pretty concrete line where fairway stops and native starts, so I can't see how irrigation would make that worse.

Grant Saunders gives a good explanation about the shortfalls of center line only above on this thread.

It would be interesting to hear from superintendents that are managing courses with a more comprehensive irrigation system, while maintaining firm conditions, low use of water, and are managing to blur the edges, producing great playability and a natural look.

I promise photos of one example where this is going to be tried, sadly not until January 2016, as the fescues need water for grow in during the next Southern Hemisphere summer. 

It would be great to hear from C&C, and other involved at Pinehurst if the single line irrigation was something that was debated internally with several pros and cons thrown out, or if it was never in doubt on how to proceed.

Again, Pinehurst is as fine a course as I have seen, and I congratulate ownership, C&C, superintendent and crew for what was done with the course. I believe they have set one of the best examples for others to follow and I just hope to learn from their experience.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Brown - Green - Brown Fairways? Isn't there a better way?
« Reply #124 on: June 25, 2014, 12:08:58 PM »
It's pretty clear to me that those that aren't impressed with P2 will never be. A conspicuously consuming lot we are, us Americans. It's embarrassing that more of us aren't on board with reductions in water, equipment, cost, fuel, etc.

If those in this thread that continually want to say, "I think it's great, but..." want to be right, fine.  I understand as much as anybody how good it feels to win Internet arguments. My question is this, why are you looking for reasons to marginalize what was done at Pinehurst if you're so impressed by it?


Ben,


I think it boils down to the fact that people are naturally resistant to change, and all that people have seen on TV for the last 5 decades is green, lush conditions.

Just yesterday a good and knowledgeable golfer told me that he thought Pinehurst # 2 looked terrible on TV.
No, it wasn't Trump.
I then asked him,  what's more important, the quality of the playing surfaces or how they look on TV ?
That's when he had his light bulb moment.

"Change" is difficult, at almost every level, so you're going to get resistance, especially when it's in one fell swoop, as was PH#2.

But, as Don has stated, with a substantive number of superintendents supporting the trend, along with discussions at the committee and board level, I think a trend is in the making.

And, you're right, those critical of PH# 2 will remain so.


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