Isn't this what we have been waiting for?!

[John Kavanaugh]

At my home club in Indiana we have a policy of not entering the scruff to look for a competitors ball partly because a guest of a member died from Lyme disease a few years back.  Ticks are very common.  It's nice to read that in North Carolina it is not quite so serious yet.

http://www.northcarolinahealthnews.org/2012/02/03/lyme-disease-not-likely-in-nc-but-caution-should-prevail/

What is disturbing is the map in the article also has Southern Indiana as a low impact area.  I know you people don't like bugs.

[Terry Lavin]

Mr. Empathy.

[Ronald Montesano]

A par 70 course playing 7562 yards with five two shotters longer than 485 yards?  
Bogey

Does no one read anything I write? If you have read me on this topic, do you not pay attention?

There is a country north of us...actually, a world around us, that uses the metric system. The mile-like distance used by them'metricians is the kilometer. It measures 6/10 of a US mile. I know Bogey knows where I'm going with this...do the rest of you?

485 yards for the greatest golfers in the world is driver and short iron, with any room off the tee. I'm in the midst of a review of Gary Player's DVD series and he discusses a potential Lebron James-esque golfer who will one day be the standard, driving the ball 400 yards.

I've watched Kevin Lynch hit the m-f-s out of hickory clubs, distances farther than I hit with moderns. The game has changed, the pros are better, so stop comparing your distances with theirs. Fact is this: if the viewers had to watch us play, rather than the long-hitting former amateurs, golf would fossilize and you'd be bitching on here about those Canaan Days.

[Eric_Terhorst]

That description is exactly what I have been waiting for, for sure.  

When the USGA defined "firm and fast" a few years ago there were only 5 American courses that met the criteria.  Ballyhack was on the list, which made our group happy because that was the design intent and it prevails today.  I do not remember who else was on the list (maybe someone could post that) but I don't think #2 was because it was pre-restoration.

So, yes Ran, some of us have been waiting for this day for quite some time.

Lester

Lester,

thanks for bringing our attention to that list by the USGA--here's a list I found at http://www.usga.org/news/2010/June/Firm-And-Fast,-At-Last!/

Ballyhack Golf Club in Roanoke, Va.
Bandon Dunes in Bandon, Ore.
Calusa Pines Golf Club in Naples, Fla.
Lahontan Golf Club in Truckee, Calif.
Sagebrush Golf and Sporting Club in Quilchena, B.C.
Southern Dunes in Maricopa, Ariz.
The Club at Clear Creek in Minden, NV

Unfortunately for me I've only played one of them, Bandon.  Once on a moist day there once I played a rolling shot with a hybrid from about 100 yards that ended well, so in my experience even when it's a little wet it plays "fast".  

John Kavanaugh,

I don't understand why you're so grumpy about the Pinehurst presentation.  Watching the highlights tonight, the worst break I saw was Kevin Tway's shot at 10 when he hit the flagstick and careened off into a bunker, resulting in a bogey.  Several players made fine recoveries from the “scruff”—granted they had to hit different shots than the predictable chunk-out from deep grass.   The setup looks great on TV and I’d love to play it as a resort guest.  The only trouble is the Pinehurst experience as shown is out of reach for most folks who would enjoy the “muni” conditions, and would be looked down upon by many of those—apparently including you--who can afford to play the course.

I recall you expressing great admiration of Torrey Pines.  I believe your average public player is likely to have much more fun at Pinehurst than Torrey Pines, without price as a consideration.  Disclaimer:  never played Torrey Pines, so I’m not really qualified to say.

Also don’t understand your and others’ comments about Mike Davis and his motivations.  I saw his comments on the Golf Channel tonight—he seems sincere in his desire to present a comprehensive test of skill that identifies a great champion.  It seems like his (and the committee’s) motivations are not about greed, or fear, or self-aggrandizement.  He appears to be a genuine fan of great golf architecture and a proponent of showcasing golf architecture and requiring the champion to master his/her understanding of it through these championships.  

What the heck is wrong with that?

[John Kavanaugh]

Eric,

When I played Torrey the rough was easier than during the US Open.  It is my contention that if I play Pinehurst in the next few years the scruff will be more difficult than what we see today.  Or at the very least no easier.  To me that is bass ackwards.

I just don't think Pinehurst needed to be made more difficult to serve the public.  It's simply overkill for the sake of peoples facebook photo collection.

The old Pinehurst with two inch rough for the public is as great a course as I have ever played.  It is more beautiful now, just not better in my book.

btw:  Where is Jim Lewis on the restoration.  I trust his opinion 100% and his silence is questionable.

[Tom_Doak]

That description is exactly what I have been waiting for, for sure.  

When the USGA defined "firm and fast" a few years ago there were only 5 American courses that met the criteria.  Ballyhack was on the list, which made our group happy because that was the design intent and it prevails today.  I do not remember who else was on the list (maybe someone could post that) but I don't think #2 was because it was pre-restoration.

So, yes Ran, some of us have been waiting for this day for quite some time.

Lester

Lester,

thanks for bringing our attention to that list by the USGA--here's a list I found at http://www.usga.org/news/2010/June/Firm-And-Fast,-At-Last!/

Ballyhack Golf Club in Roanoke, Va.
Bandon Dunes in Bandon, Ore.
Calusa Pines Golf Club in Naples, Fla.
Lahontan Golf Club in Truckee, Calif.
Sagebrush Golf and Sporting Club in Quilchena, B.C.
Southern Dunes in Maricopa, Ariz.
The Club at Clear Creek in Minden, NV

At best, that is an incomplete list.  Ballyneal, to name one other, is as down with brown as any of them.  Kingsley, another.  I'm sure there are quite a few more, so I wonder what role politics played in the "official" list.

[Peter Pallotta]

Meaningful width sure is nice, whether I'm watching the pros or playing a local course. But the meaningful part is important; at No 2, they have restored that meaning, in part by lengthening the course (but that's okay). I'd like to see that be the takeaway from the US Open, both the men's and women's version - meaningful width. Maybe a lot more courses for amateurs could be designed with domed greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Eric,

When I played Torrey the rough was easier than during the US Open.  It is my contention that if I play Pinehurst in the next few years the scruff will be more difficult than what we see today.  Or at the very least no easier.  To me that is bass ackwards.

I just don't think Pinehurst needed to be made more difficult to serve the public.  It's simply overkill for the sake of peoples facebook photo collection.

The old Pinehurst with two inch rough for the public is as great a course as I have ever played. 

JakaB,

By "The old Pinehurst" I take it that you mean the Pinehurst you played a few years ago.

The "olde" Pinehurst didn't have two (2) inch rough.

Coincidently, I came across some pictures of my Dad and Frank Stafaci taken at Pinehurst in 1938.
I didn't notice any two (2) inch rough

It is more beautiful now, just not better in my book.

btw:  Where is Jim Lewis on the restoration.  I trust his opinion 100% and his silence is questionable.

There's nothing "questionable" about Jim Lewis's absence of posts.
Maybe he just doesn't have the time or inclination.
I wouldn't draw nefarious conclusions from his lack of posting.

[Eric_Terhorst]

It is my contention that if I play Pinehurst in the next few years the scruff will be more difficult than what we see today. 

John, you may be right, and you are certainly correct that you don’t want to play Pinehurst in a corporate outing under these conditions.  But personally I would look forward to playing #2 with the “scruff” rather than the “rough” on my next time around.

Ballyhack Golf Club in Roanoke, Va.
Bandon Dunes in Bandon, Ore.
Calusa Pines Golf Club in Naples, Fla.
Lahontan Golf Club in Truckee, Calif.
Sagebrush Golf and Sporting Club in Quilchena, B.C.
Southern Dunes in Maricopa, Ariz.
The Club at Clear Creek in Minden, NV

At best, that is an incomplete list.  Ballyneal, to name one other, is as down with brown as any of them.  Kingsley, another.  I'm sure there are quite a few more, so I wonder what role politics played in the "official" list.

Tom Doak, the article on the USGA web site doesn’t seem very “official.”  It’s not clear what these courses have in common other than being featured in the article.  But I have a friend who’s a member at Lahontan, so maybe I’ll start my investigation there 

[Paul Gray]

Here is what one poster on GolfWRX thinks of the course setup:
"just turned it on after work, why are they playing the us open on dirt? why can't the usga set up a golf course properly? augusta manages to put on a good show every year with basically perfect conditions, why does the usga feel the need to get things so extreme?"

This is the view of, what, at least 90% of the golfing public?

+1; I didn't have the guts to go on that site today to see the hemming and hawing.

This is like a red rag to a bull. Never usually frequent that site but may have to do so now!

[Josh Tarble]

I thought yesterday was awesome...I think the course presentation is great.  There is no course I want to play more than #2.  To me, the maintenance and setup was ideal for a Thursday of a US Open.  Allowed for 1 low score and handful of under par rounds, the rest were way over.  Now, hopefully the setup gets increasingly more difficult each day.

However, I did have more than 3 of my good golfing friends say they thought Pinehurst used to look a lot better.  I quickly put him in his place 

The other rub here, is firm and fast.  Firm and fast is ideal, makes hazards come into play, makes players have to think about their shots.  But it also means drives will roll out 60 yards, 320 yard drives are common place.  When the ball is running that fast, it's not hard to hit it really far. 

[Josh Tarble]

I'd also like to say I think the scrub at Pinehurst and their green complexes are the perfect combination.  The scrub kind of penalizes the aggressive player by tempting them into hitting a shot they shouldn't hit.  Then, in combination with the green complexes, they are completely out of position and must play another extremely difficult shot.  That really wears on a player.

[BHoover]

I thought yesterday was awesome...I think the course presentation is great.  There is no course I want to play more than #2.  To me, the maintenance and setup was ideal for a Thursday of a US Open.  Allowed for 1 low score and handful of under par rounds, the rest were way over.  Now, hopefully the setup gets increasingly more difficult each day.

However, I did have more than 3 of my good golfing friends say they thought Pinehurst used to look a lot better.  I quickly put him in his place 

The other rub here, is firm and fast.  Firm and fast is ideal, makes hazards come into play, makes players have to think about their shots.  But it also means drives will roll out 60 yards, 320 yard drives are common place.  When the ball is running that fast, it's not hard to hit it really far. 

Well said.  I think the course setup and presentation is ideal.  It may not be what the general golfing public prefers, but for my money, the setup at Pinehurst #2 is superb.

[David Federman]

Watching featured group on -line (Dufner, Kaymer, and Bradley). On 17th Dufner puts tee ball in right side bunker. Draws a bad lie, with some extra sand behind his ball. Hits fat shot that rolls back into bunker. He curses about "bad rake job." Manages to get a bogey with good 3rd shot.  Commentators talk about terrible bad break and that whoever raked the bunker previously should get in trouble with USGA. Do you think Donald Ross envisioned perfect lies in bunkers? Please.

[Brent Hutto]

I think if you're playing in a major championship and there are rakes in a bunker, then you have every right to expect your fellow competitors to do a good job of raking. When 150 other players are playing today with that bunker perfectly raked, the fact that one guy (or his caddie) chose to leave it sloppy for the group playing behind him is a serious discourtesy.

It's no different than if someone in the group ahead of Dufner had dragged their feet 18" from the cup and left a bunch of spike marks without repairing them. The following player has to deal with a particularly bad "break" that was in fact created by one inconsiderate competitor. With no recourse under the Rules to do anything but accept the bad outcome.

[Greg Clark]

Ran,

I personally was disappointed that Graeme's shot from the scruff at a poor angle stayed within inches of the putting surface. Now I know it is only Thursday morning, but these soft greens do not compliment the design.  Perhaps a better scenario would have been to let the ladies play first so the greens could be baked for the men.

I think the fairways and sandy scruff are wonderful.  But I agree with the above in relation to the greens.  The greens were a little soft yesterday, and last nights rain really stripped the greens of a lot of their character and interest this morning.  That is where the interest of the course lies.  I too have to wonder if the women's open being played next week is going to result in the USGA being too conservative with the greens. 

Pinehurst is not playing firm and fast, because the greens are soft.  Hopefully the weather and USGA will combine to put some teeth in the greens.  The hour I watched this morning before work was pretty boring golf.  I hope that changes, because the course looks stunning.

[Brent Hutto]

You know it often goes unmentioned because we enjoy talking about bunkers and rough and visuals and fairway widths and how long courses are. But the truth is there are only two reliable ways to challenge the best players in the world. Winds of more than 15mph and rock-hard greens on which they can not get a ball to stop.

Absent wind and with moderately soft greens the rest is not exactly window dressing but everything else combined adds up to less importance than those two factors.

[Keith Grande]

Course setup and conditioning was discussed on the Tom Meeks thread, about "living on the edge".  You try to set up the course as to what you expect weather conditions to be, but Mother Nature can disrupt those plans. 

We have the Pinehurst fairways, with plenty of width, 50+ yards in many instances, which were expected to play smaller and narrower with the length of the pro's drives and the runout.  However, with the relative softness of the fairways, players were hitting driver without impunity in many cases, as the fairways played softer, and therefore wider, than expected.  Phil hit every fairway that he hit driver on yesterday.

[Howard Riefs]

Golf World's Ron Sirak puts it well (though perhaps very optimistic) in this column on the 5 reasons Pinehurst No. 2 should be the future of golf:

"Embrace the brown of Pinehurst No. 2. It's the way golf needs to look -- and play -- if we are to get the game growing again."

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/06/5-reasons-pinehurst-no-2-shoul.html

[Jason Thurman]

I'm pretty disappointed in GolfWRX. Maybe the unwashed aren't as unwashed as we thought. The course is mostly getting rave reviews from what I've seen on that site.

On another site, a guy said the 90s version of Pinehurst was much "prettier" and the new version "looks like an abandoned sandlot." I got a kick out of that and was hoping for more golden quotes on WRX, but came away empty.

[John Kavanaugh]

Firm fairways, soft greens and benign rough is a perfect formula for guy trying to buy a game. The guys at GRX are suckers for a set up like this.  350 yd drives and sucked back wedges = perfection.

[Keith Grande]

Jason, I think they get spongebaths over there these days  

[Jud_T]

A record 8 shot lead by a Euro automaton is not what we've been waiting for.

[Brent Hutto]

So if Phil Mickelson shoots 10-under over the weekend while the "automaton" crashes and burns, will that make the course better than it is right now?

I've never understood how one could judge the quality of a tournament venue by the name or nationality of the winner.

I guess when Langer won at Augusta the course must have really sucked that year, eh?

[Jud_T]

I didn't say anything about the venue, I'm already sold on it.  I'm talking about ratings, eyeballs and the opinion of Joe Sixpack. Kaymer with an 8 shot lead and softer conditions are not what the doctor ordered.