[Tim_Weiman]

If I am not mistaken, Jack Nicklaus once described #12 at Augusta as one of the great Par 3s in championship golf. Few, if any, would quarrel with that.

But, on another recent thread our own Brian Hoover expressed a different perspective suggesting that #12 wasn't really an interesting hole and simply gets all its acclaim from Masters drama.

I think Brian has raised a fair question. Is this hole really interesting? Or is it so demanding that even very good players (e.g., 1-5 handicap) simply have to aim at the middle of the green and hope they avoid disaster?

And, what about our friend, the 15 handicap player? Is there anything "interesting" for him?

[John Kavanaugh]

I find the fact that Greg Norman lost a ball behind the green one of the most interesting events in golf history.

[Mac Plumart]

It is an incredibly interesting hole...for the scratch man or the hack.

Scratch man wants to stick it tight to the pin and avoid having to putt up and/or down those swales and tilts, but risks missing the green, bunkers, and/or water depending on how precise he wants to get and how well (or how poorly he pulls the shot off).  Missing the green and/or being in the wrong portion of the green carries massive risks.

Hack man simply wants to get over the water and by the green.  Carrying the water adds thrill to his shot.  And as mentioned above, missing the green and/or being in the wrong section of the green will yield some very interesting shots and options.

[Terry Lavin]

Based on my tv viewing and my one day of walking the course, I'd say it's interesting in that it looks so seductively beautiful, but it tends to play in a very penal way, leading most players to play the hole defensively.

[Tim_Weiman]

It is an incredibly interesting hole...for the scratch man or the hack.

Scratch man wants to stick it tight to the pin and avoid having to putt up and/or down those swales and tilts, but risks missing the green, bunkers, and/or water depending on how precise he wants to get and how well (or how poorly he pulls the shot off).  Missing the green and/or being in the wrong portion of the green carries massive risks.

Hack man simply wants to get over the water and by the green.  Carrying the water adds thrill to his shot.  And as mentioned above, missing the green and/or being in the wrong section of the green will yield some very interesting shots and options.

Mac:

Thanks for your comments. My only question is do you equate 15 handicap with a "hack"?

John K:

Forgot about that. Yes, it was very interesting!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tim, it sounds like you want a discussion about two different holes, the 12th on the Masters course and the 12th on the members course. I think you can discuss the merits of each but trying to compare is a worthless exercise IMHO.

[Mac Plumart]

Mark...great point!

Tim...As a man who very much remembers being a 15 handicap, the term doesn't apply...all the time.  But the main thing about being a 15 is lack of consistency.  Sometimes you hit shots like a single digit player, sometimes like a 25 handicap.  I know...I still do it now!  

But my point was that it is playable for all levels of players and challenging for all levels of players...and therefore interesting.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

I think #12 is a very interesting hole, and not simply because it is on the back nine of ANGC and site of so much drama over the years as part of the Masters.

I have two reasons for why I think the hole is interesting and I am sure there are others...

1. The angle at which the green sits in relation to the tee box - the 45 degree nature of the green makes slight misses in both range and direction a significant issue for most shots.  

2. The much-heralded winds around Amen Corner.  The manner in which the winds swirl in that part of the course make choosing a club difficult given the precision needed on the shot (see above).  Players can stand on the tee box for five minutes trying to pick the right time to hit and I have sat in the bleachers numerous times and seen the flags on #12 and #11 blow in opposite directions for extended periods of time.

I think it is a fascinating hole and I think any time you can hand a professional golfer a nine-iron and provide him that much trepidation over a tee shot, makes it an interesting hole in my opinion.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim, it sounds like you want a discussion about two different holes, the 12th on the Masters course and the 12th on the members course. I think you can discuss the merits of each but trying to compare is a worthless exercise IMHO.

Mark,

I'm inclined to think there are two different discussions. Perhaps that is true for all holes.

[Phil McDade]

Thoughts on the 12th at Augusta from a couple of years ago:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51759.0.html

Interestingly, the bite to 12 returned this year at the Masters; it played as the 4th-hardest hole during the tournament (although only the second-hardest par 3; #4 still played more difficult).

[Nigel Islam]

It is such a simple concept too. It definitely has more strategy than 17 at TPC. I think Jack puts his money where his mouth is because he seems to use the concept of 12 on his courses.

[Keith Grande]

Interesting, perhaps in the Masters back-nine surge it's an important hole, where disaster could strike.  Otherwise, it's a very penal hole where players shoot for middle of the green and hope to make par and run to 13.  I thought that Spieth made a great 4 after visiting Rae's Creek.

As far as member play, I believe the only difference is that the tee box is elevated a little higher than the tournament tees, but they are side by side.

[Phil McDade]

Interesting, perhaps in the Masters back-nine surge it's an important hole, where disaster could strike.  Otherwise, it's a very penal hole where players shoot for middle of the green and hope to make par and run to 13.  I thought that Spieth made a great 4 after visiting Rae's Creek.

As far as member play, I believe the only difference is that the tee box is elevated a little higher than the tournament tees, but they are side by side.

Keith:

Prior to last year's Master's, the 12th played pretty easily -- with a near-equal number of birdies vs. bogeys. That suggests more of a risk-reward hole than a par-is-a-good-score-here hole (which is a better description of the par 3 4th at Augusta).

[Jim Nugent]

It would be good to hear the opinions of some people who have played the hole. 

[Mac Plumart]

It would be good to hear the opinions of some people who have played the hole. 

 

[BHoover]

It would be good to hear the opinions of some people who have played the hole. 

So are those who haven't played a particular hole not entitled to an opinion?  It may not be as informed of an opinion as those who have played it, but it's still an opinion.

[Phil McDade]

It would be good to hear the opinions of some people who have played the hole. 

So are those who haven't played a particular hole not entitled to an opinion?  It may not be as informed of an opinion as those who have played it, but it's still an opinion.

Yes, let's not have opinions about music if you haven't strummed a Les Paul, or about literature if you haven't written Moby Dick.

[Ryan Coles]

I've been playing ANGC Golf Club for over 50 years, ever since Daddy used to take me with his best friend Ike Eisenhower.

The 12th is so damn interesting, I choked on my silver spoon.

I win. All other opinions hereby null and void.

Joking aside, it has been the scene of many famous moments. And also the infamous incident with Palmer and Venturi.

[Tim_Weiman]

It would be good to hear the opinions of some people who have played the hole. 

So are those who haven't played a particular hole not entitled to an opinion?  It may not be as informed of an opinion as those who have played it, but it's still an opinion.

Brian,

Would you care to share your thoughts on the hole?

[BHoover]

I think that it's tough to separate the hole from the Masters, where it's obviously played a crucial role in deciding the tournament (see 1992 and Fred Couples). But if you ignore the pressure of the Masters, the hole seems rather bland to me. It's a green without much movement (from what I can tell) and it's either hit the green or you have little chance as you're in the creek, the bunker or the woods. Not much chance for a chip or shot from off the green. It just doesn't do much for me. I may be crazy but it's just not my favorite well-respected hole.

Chris made a good point earlier about the angle of the green, but it's not apparent from tv so I missed that.

[Matthew Petersen]

I think that it's tough to separate the hole from the Masters, where it's obviously played a crucial role in deciding the tournament (see 1992 and Fred Couples). But if you ignore the pressure of the Masters, the hole seems rather bland to me. It's a green without much movement (from what I can tell) and it's either hit the green or you have little chance as you're in the creek, the bunker or the woods. Not much chance for a chip or shot from off the green. It just doesn't do much for me. I may be crazy but it's just not my favorite well-respected hole.

Chris made a good point earlier about the angle of the green, but it's not apparent from tv so I missed that.

It's such a shallow green that if it had much movement, the hole would be borderline unplayable. As it is, if you go long, you have some hope of getting a chip shot to stop on the green.

I think it's all in the angle of the green. Left pin positions are great birdie chances for the pros and lesser players. It's not a long shot over there, and that's the deepest part of the green by far. Miss long and you're ore likely to be in a playable spot than if you miss long when playing to a middle or right hole position. Meanwhile, the "Sunday" pin position, is tempting but very dangerous. Speith boldly challenged that location and came up in the water, but in so doing he proved that not everyone just automatically takes it to the middle of the green.

[Matthew Rose]

I've always questioned the purpose of the front bunker. Would it be a better/worse hole without it?

[Matthew Lloyd]

I've always questioned the purpose of the front bunker. Would it be a better/worse hole without it?

I'd love to see this hole played without the front bunker. We'd see a lot more shots go into the water and it would become even more exacting.

In terms of the debate about how intriguing of a hole it is, I feel like it's impossible to separate the hole from the TV drama of the tournament. It's inherently interesting and dramatic given the stakes. It's sort of like Fenway Park -- the design of that stadium may be absurd, but the team is usually so good that it immediately becomes interesting. If a perennial also-ran played there it may be more goofy than classic. Not the best analogy, I realize.

[David Kelly]

If a perennial also-ran played there it may be more goofy than classic. Not the best analogy, I realize.

Well, a perennial also-ran played there for 86 years and it was still considered a classic stadium.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If I am not mistaken, Jack Nicklaus once described #12 at Augusta as one of the great Par 3s in championship golf.
Few, if any, would quarrel with that.

But, on another recent thread our own Brian Hoover expressed a different perspective suggesting that #12 wasn't really an interesting hole and simply gets all its acclaim from Masters drama.

Then he's a moron !

I think Brian has raised a fair question.
Is this hole really interesting?

It's extremely interesting.
It's a wonderful par 3.
Not long, 155 from the Masters tees, angled, well protected front and back.
You can cut or draw your approach.

But, understand that par 3's are essentially one dimensional holes to begin with.
The ultimate in target golf, where you're told where to hit from and where to hit to.

Is the 7th at Pebble Beach any different.

The 10th at Pine Valley

Or is it so demanding that even very good players (e.g., 1-5 handicap) simply have to aim at the middle of the green and hope they avoid disaster?

Nonsense.

At 145 yards from the Members tees the green is quite accessible.
ANGC's members and guests play it successfully throughout their season.

Pine Tree's replica, the 13th green is much narrower, especially in the waist.
Pine Tree's Rae's Creek is a huge bunker and it's a very interesting hole, made more interesting by the wind.

And, what about our friend, the 15 handicap player? Is there anything "interesting" for him?

Absolutely.

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