[David Davis]

I had mentioned the great trip I was fortunate enough to just return from. One of my learning was that I had a bit of a misconception of Heathland courses based on my up till this trip semi limited experience playing them.

In my mind and based on what I had read and experienced the area around London was a sort of sand belt, much like that in the Melbourne area.

After playing and experiencing most of the top Heathland courses last week I realize this was simply not the case. I basically expected links playing conditions and the only course that lived up to this expectation even remotely was Walton Heath. I found this quite a surprise so I started speaking with the managers/green keeping staff and indeed most of these courses are built on green sand which is actually clay or more like a mix I suppose. This with the fact that the area had received a tremendous amount of rain led to quite soft playing conditions.

Now the courses were all truly fantastic and living up to their esteemed reputations, the soft conditions and the learnings about the turf they are dealing with were a great surprise.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

[Paul Gray]

David,

I'm sure someone more specifically expert than me can write you an essay but the area you refer to, whilst referred to as 'the sandbelt' doesn't produce courses which play like a links. The soil however is conducive to a running game and I say that as a links golfer located directly south of the famed Surrey courses.

You should perhaps be aware that last winter was incredibly wet and everywhere is unusually lush at present. At my course, known to be possibly the driest course in Britain, we're still playing in conditions well short of firm and fast. I've seen the thing run more in February than it is at the moment. 

[Ryan Coles]

Paul is correct. Purely climate.

Not even links play firm and fast for more than a few months. It's a bit of a misconception that they do.

[jeffwarne]

 the fact that the area had received a tremendous amount of rain led to quite soft playing conditions.

shocker

[Brent Hutto]

I've said before that the greatest golf course in the world, soaking wet, is not as much fun to play as an undistinguished, generic layout playing firm and fast. For me conditioning, at least at its extremes, trumps design every single time.

[Alan Strachan]

While I agree with comments regards climate having a huge influence on our courses, the wet winter was 4 months ago.
Since then I feel that we have experienced the best spring in many years which has helped all course managers.
One misconception that I'd like to clear up is the soil types, I believe 90% of the great heaths are on this green sand which does drain, not as well as a links site but a lot better than what we have at Walton Heath, as we are one of the very few heaths that are on clay which as we all know, does not drain, but you have to work with what you've got, and along with linksy presentation, regular sand top dressing, conditions can be presented in a fast and firm style.

[Sean_A]

David

The heathland courses, with the exception of Walton Heath, are truly parkland/heathland hybrids.  Greenkeeping methods and detrimental tree growth have in the main conspired to compromise the benefits of heathland soil and turf for golf.  No matter if one thinks Walton Heath is not as pretty or as well designed as some other big gun heathlands, it is the only true heathland course both visually and in playing characteristics in the south and is therefore the must see heathland course for any visitor.  Sunny etc are very pretty and well designed, but don't imo play much different than a well maintained US parkland course.  That said, there can't be much question the water table has risen significantly for many courses and that has to effect playing conditions.  I think given the weather these past 6 months (I have not seen a prolonged dry spell), what is deemed as good conditions has to be somewhat skewed.  I know Burnham is quickly getting standing water now when it heavily rains although I think all the standing water from the winter has dissipated.  

Ciao

[David Davis]

Alan,

Thanks for your input here. I'm literally amazed if you are telling us that Walton Heath is also dealing with purely clay soil and that the links like conditions we so enjoyed there are purely down to green keeping. My hat is off to you sir. You and your team have even tricked some of the staff at other local courses as I was told that Walton Heath they believed to be sand. If you can do that with clay during some very wet periods then I believe we could all learn tremendously from your expertise. In fact, I'm a member at a links course and I only dream about achieving those same conditions and we are sand based.

Sean,

I'm with you on everything you said. Indeed these are hybrids and while they are being near perfectly maintained to be parkland-like right now after the rainy conditions I would think all could benefit from best common practice in terms of what Alan and his team are doing over there. However, I'm then also assuming that the members want these kinds of conditions. Perhaps they lean towards a little softer more receptive wishes and those of us wishing for firm and fast are all congregated on this forum for the most part.

[Mark Bourgeois]

David

My thoughts on this are I wouldn't draw conclusions about course conditions after one play or after a few days spent in an area.

Mark

[Sean_A]

David

My thoughts on this are I wouldn't draw conclusions about course conditions after one play or after a few days spent in an area.

Mark

Mark

In this case, that would be a mistake because it leaves open the hope that these hybrids will somehow play like they can't, or at least can't very often.  After many games, in many seasons and over many years, I still remain surprised at the difference between the reality and the myth of drainage in the heathlands.  I remember one archie saying exactly the same thing many years ago.  Since then, Walton Heath became mor serious about their heathland heritage.  Other courses too have done some tree clearing work.  The heathland clubs know the score and they know they are not performing as well as they could. They must also suspect that drainage will continue to be an issue and possiby problematic for viistor income if reps slide.  It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall for comm/greenkeeper meetings.  I never thought the drainage or upkeep of Swinley matched the design or green fee. 

Except for Walton Heath, Little Aston (a parklander!), Notts, Beau Desert, Whittington Heath etc, drain just as well if not better than the London heathlands.  At some point ya gotta call it like ya see it.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

You are probably generally right, but I also think you're painting with too broad a brush.

Unless it had rained a lot, I always found Addington fast and firm, maybe sometimes too much.

Running approaches were always on the cards at Worpy.

Walton Heath as discussed has conditioning aced.

Other heaths I only played once each, but those I saw in July, August or September all ended to be in fine firm condition.

I'm surprised to read Alan say winter 2013-14 isn't a factor this summer. RCP is it's own case, and has unique water table issues, but it is certainly still feeling the effects of winter.

And of course Mark B is right that making significant judgements on the basis of a one-week exposure to heathland golf during shoulder season probably isn't wise (not saying David's OP necessarily did that, but it appears to be where we are headed).

[Sean_A]

Scott

We likely aren't disagreeing, but any course can be in good nick and run come July and August.  For courses open all year, the time to mark a card for conditioning/drainage is in the off/shoulder seasons because that is the biggest chunk of the year.  Get that right and everything else will more easily fall into place.  To me, the biggest reason for reinstating proper heath or links conditions is precisely because of the advantages gained Novemberish thru Aprilish. 

Ciao

[David Davis]

Scott

We likely aren't disagreeing, but any course can be in good nick and run come July and August.  For courses open all year, the time to mark a card for conditioning/drainage is in the off/shoulder seasons because that is the biggest chunk of the year.  Get that right and everything else will more easily fall into place.  To me, the biggest reason for reinstating proper heath or links conditions is precisely because of the advantages gained Novemberish thru Aprilish. 

Ciao

+1 . In the summer months the clay soil is going to harden considerably so one would certainly expect firm conditions during this time. The idea of being hybrids means they could achieve this for the most part throughout the year like Walton Heath seems to be able to do.

[Mike Hendren]

I basically expected links playing conditions and the only course that lived up to this expectation even remotely was Walton Heath.... I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

Respectfully, I'm surprised at your use of the qualifier "even remotely."  Show me a course that plays firmer and faster and I'll show you a course where you can't walk without slipping.  I'm a fat man who doesn't hit the ball very far any anymore, but one shot is vivid in my mind - a head-high 3-wood with a slight draw into the breeze from a juicy lie in the left rough of the Old Course's 8th that I stepped off at 250 yards.   I also 3-putted the 16th from 50 yards out for par.  

I have never played a course where the maintenance and conditions complemented the architecture and enhanced the wind more than it does at Walton Heath.  Alan's a genius in my book.

Honestly, I'd like to go back and play the course with a driver, sand wedge and putter.  I think I could get around under a hundred if I put the old Ram Zebra under arm.

Bogey

[Brent Hutto]

I basically expected links playing conditions and the only course that lived up to this expectation even remotely was Walton Heath.... I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

Respectfully, I'm surprised at your use of the qualifier "even remotely."  Show me a course that plays firmer and faster and I'll show you a course where you can't walk without slipping.  I'm a fat man who doesn't hit the ball very far any anymore, but one shot is vivid in my mind - a head-high 3-wood with a slight draw into the breeze from a juicy lie in the left rough of the Old Course's 8th that I stepped off at 250 yards.   I also 3-putted the 15th from 50 yards out for par.  

I have never played a course where the maintenance and conditions complemented the architecture and windage more than it does at Walton Heath.  Alan's a genius in my book.

Honestly, I'd like to go back and play the course with a driver, sand wedge and putter.  I think I could get around under a hundred if I put the old Ram Zebra under arm.

Bogey

If we ever end up in England at the same time that would be a fun game. We could call it the "Fat Cracker Three-Club Challenge Match".

[Sean_A]

Fat Cracker Three-Club Challenge Match

 

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

Sean,

You surprise me with your suggestion that clubs know the score. Such faith in a bunch of club golfers that have hung around for long enough to make it onto the Greens Committee strikes me as optimism in the extreme!

[Scott Warren]

Scott

We likely aren't disagreeing, but any course can be in good nick and run come July an

Scott

We likely aren't disagreeing, but any course can be in good nick and run come July and August.  For courses open all year, the time to mark a card for conditioning/drainage is in the off/shoulder seasons because that is the biggest chunk of the year.  Get that right and everything else will more easily fall into place.  To me, the biggest reason for reinstating proper heath or links conditions is precisely because of the advantages gained Novemberish thru Aprilish.  

Ciao

+1 . In the summer months the clay soil is going to harden considerably so one would certainly expect firm conditions during this time. The idea of being hybrids means they could achieve this for the most part throughout the year like Walton Heath seems to be able to do.

d August.  For courses open all year, the time to mark a card for conditioning/drainage is in the off/shoulder seasons because that is the biggest chunk of the year.  Get that right and everything else will more easily fall into place.  To me, the biggest reason for reinstating proper heath or links conditions is precisely because of the advantages gained Novemberish thru Aprilish.  

Ciao

+1 . In the summer months the clay soil is going to harden considerably so one would certainly expect firm conditions during this time. The idea of being hybrids means they could achieve this for the most part throughout the year like Walton Heath seems to be able to do.

What I am saying is that I found other courses to do just that throughout the year. The three I referenced are the heaths I played most when I lived in London, and at varying times of the year. Add Hankley & NZ as another two I played multiple times at varying times of year and enjoyed being able to move my ball on the ground when required.

Sean is a hard marker on the big fellas & I'm not certain his appraisal here is entirely fair.

I've played a bit of parkland golf in the US & a good amount of heathland golf and I reckon likening the conditions is a long bow.

[Brent Hutto]

I thought there was talk on here a couple years back and Hankley Common working toward a turf and heather improvement programme much along the lines of Walton Heath's. Or am I thinking of the wrong club?

[Tom Kelly]

I'm not sure how much difference it really makes as the underlying ground conditions are obviously a major factor in the water table and drainage but I've just had a quick look on Google Earth and Walton Heath is the highest at ~175m (above sea level) of the Surrey heathland courses that I could think of quickly, with St George's Hill the lowest at ~44m, most were in the ~70m range including Sunningdale.

I'd be interested to hear from someone with more knowledge on the subject to see how much effect this actually has or whether what is under the ground is the real factor. Surely it is worth something?

Thanks for the input, Alan, can you tell us more about what's under the ground at Walton as I'm led to believe its not the kind of clay you'd see somewhere like Royal Mid Surrey.

Really interested to hear more about this too. I had assumed it was a gravely/sandy soil at Walton Heath. Chalky perhaps being towards the Surrey Downs?

[Neil White]

Tom,

I often use this web-site to broadly check out soil type and drainage qualities etc of courses - http://www.landis.org.uk/soilscapes/index.cfm

For Walton Heath there are two different classes of soil - one 'Freely draining slightly acid loamy soils' toward the north of the course and another 'Slightly acid loamy and clayey soils with impeded drainage' which makes up a majority of the site.

Sunningdale - there are two polarised soil types - one that is classed as 'Freely draining very acid sandy and loamy soils' and another 'Naturally wet very acid sandy and loamy soils'.  It is also suggested that the water table is quite high.

I'm not sure how much relevance a site above sea level is with a local watertable as much would depend on the porosity of the sub-soil etc.

Neil.

[Adam Lawrence]

I thought there was talk on here a couple years back and Hankley Common working toward a turf and heather improvement programme much along the lines of Walton Heath's. Or am I thinking of the wrong club?

Really the other way round. The late, great Ian McMillan was greenkeeper at Hankley and played a key role in the heathland regeneration there. He then move to Walton and was deeply involved in the same process there. Ian's sudden death at the age of 50 a few years ago was a terrible tragedy. Walton made a great choice hiring Alan to succeed him, but I'm sure Alan would be the first to say his great work has built on the foundations Ian laid.

[Mark Chaplin]

Hankley grow and sell heather to other clubs

[Adam Lawrence]

Hankley grow and sell heather to other clubs

They do. The heather at Queenwood (which Ian grew in and is managed by his brother Cameron) came from Hankley.

[Tom Kelly]

Tom,

I often use this web-site to broadly check out soil type and drainage qualities etc of courses - http://www.landis.org.uk/soilscapes/index.cfm

For Walton Heath there are two different classes of soil - one 'Freely draining slightly acid loamy soils' toward the north of the course and another 'Slightly acid loamy and clayey soils with impeded drainage' which makes up a majority of the site.

Sunningdale - there are two polarised soil types - one that is classed as 'Freely draining very acid sandy and loamy soils' and another 'Naturally wet very acid sandy and loamy soils'.  It is also suggested that the water table is quite high.

I'm not sure how much relevance a site above sea level is with a local watertable as much would depend on the porosity of the sub-soil etc.

Neil.

Thanks for that Neil, it looks like a really useful website.

My only concern is that it suggests the clayey soil at Walton Heath is the same as the soil at my old club in Nottingham which is the polar opposite of Walton Heath in terms of turf and playing conditions; very soggy in winter, broad leaf grasses and crusty and broken up baked clay in the summer...firm but not good firm! Could this be true? I'd be amazed if it was purely greenkeeping techniques that make the difference, not taking anything away from the Walton Heath team as they obviously do a fantastic job and I have had my concerns about the practices used at my old place...

Now it's got me thinking about how good my old club could be if it looked like the Walton Heath landscape, pointless daydreaming!

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