What do you think about rule 6-7 pace of play enforcement in a club event?

[Bill Brightly]

My club has a strong tradition of not accepting slow play. Rounds over 4 hours are very rare for normal weekend play. We deal with the rare slow group with some good-natured ribbing at the bar, and also by "slow play letters" if needed. A very few number of members have been required to tee off after 10 AM after the warnings failed to change their habits.

Recently we've had some problems with pace of play in intra club matches and medal play qualifying. I think we should simply announce that Rule 6-7 will be enforced for selected events and require our pro staff to monitor the pace, warn groups that are out of position, and eventually put those groups "on the clock," if needed.

I am nearly certain that the threat alone will solve the slow play problem. I think the handful of guys who wait until it is their turn to putt and THEN start stalking their line will knock it off.

But do you think this is too strict? Would you be annoyed if your club instituted such procedures for an event? (I know that our pro staff would prefer not to be placed in the position of policeman, but I think it is required.) Personally, I think this simply reinforces our club's intolerance for slow play.

Thoughts?

[Carl Nichols]

Bill:
We are in a very similar position--we very rarely have rounds over 4 hours during regular play, but then things slow down for special events.  (The member-guest this past week/weekend is a good example.)  I wish our club would do what you're suggesting.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Maybe you could ask some of the members who aren't playing in the tournaments to act as marshals. Gets them involved rather than just (possibly) being upset by the closing, and gives the staff some insulation.

[jeffwarne]

Maybe you could ask some of the members who aren't playing in the tournaments to act as marshals. Gets them involved rather than just (possibly) being upset by the closing, and gives the staff some insulation.

Jim,
good point about giving the staff insulation.
But it's very difficult for me to see how anyone who would be upset by the course closing,and choose not to play, would be agreeable to such a thankless task as timing other members

[Peter Pallotta]

Bill - I must be missing/misunderstanding something, because it seems to me that the right approach here is already indicated by and contained in your original post.  Your club already has a good culture regarding pace of play, and an environment in which good natured ribbing is followed by a letter and then followed by restrictions. So why not start by writing a letter to all members prior to a club event, something like (off the top of my head):

Dear Club Member:

One of the many qualities that we all appreciate about our club is its strong tradition of not accepting slow play. We are very fortunate that, unlike most golfers at clubs all across the country, we rarely experience rounds over 4 hours, even on the weekends.  I think we all play a role in that, and should be both proud and grateful about it -- we understand and value the etiquette of a proper pace of play, and we care enough about each-other to all do our part in ensuring it.

Some of you may have found, however, that when to comes to intra-club matches that admirable pace of play slows down considerably. As we approach our next club event, it seemed like a good time to remind ourselves of what we already know (and regularly accomplish) regarding a proper pace of play. Granted, we all tend to take a little more time during competitive rounds  – but if we can try to stick closer to the good pace of play practices that have earned us our enviable reputation and tradition, we’ll probably all play better golf, enjoy our club events even more, and still manage to get around in 4 hours.

[John Kavanaugh]

Many of the rake and runners play quickly for fun in order to raise their handicaps to compete in events.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Maybe you could ask some of the members who aren't playing in the tournaments to act as marshals. Gets them involved rather than just (possibly) being upset by the closing, and gives the staff some insulation.

Jim,
good point about giving the staff insulation.
But it's very difficult for me to see how anyone who would be upset by the course closing,and choose not to play, would be agreeable to such a thankless task as timing other members

Jeff,

Yes, but that might not hold for all the members.

Alternately - you have to pay staff to be out on the course, so why not 'pay' the member/marshals with some pro shop credit, a few free carts, etc., funded by event's budget.  

[Donovan Childers]

I wouldn't have a problem with a club enforcing the pace of play rule, I actually wish they would. You would need to have some sort of real penalty involved for many to take it seriously. Some people won't care at all and just take their strokes and move on.  If you have ever played in one of these Am tours like the golf channel tour, when you get three penalties during a year, you are banned for six months from playing in their tournaments.

[Tim Martin]

The culture is enviable but you have to be mindful that medal play qualifying is a different animal and situations can and will arise which test the pace of play limits. I don't think it is going too far to let the participants know up front that the same decorum is expected in an effort to preserve the tradition.

[Bill Brightly]

Maybe you could ask some of the members who aren't playing in the tournaments to act as marshals. Gets them involved rather than just (possibly) being upset by the closing, and gives the staff some insulation.

Jim, I know you are a club pro, and I understand your reluctance to being placed in a position of perhaps having to call a penalty on a member...but you also have to make rulings during the club championship and other times, right? If a group has a hole open, are asked to close the gap but do not, they may be placed "on the clock." The committee sets the time constraints that go into effect at that point: the first player to reach his ball on the green has 50 seconds to putt, all others have 40 seconds. This seems VERY reasonable to me. And if the group gets back into position they can be taken off the clock. To me, it is just one of many Rules of Golf that competitors must abide by.

Having fellow members do it is problematic. First of all, I don't think it is right to ask a member to spend 5 or 6 hours on the course when they are not playing. Secondly, all of the staff are trained professionals, paid to be there, and all can assume they are unbiased.

Peter, while we have no real pace of play problems during regular member play, we do for certain events. There are a few guys who simply say: "I don't give a damn, this match (or medal play score) is critical, it's  a 'wall' tournament, so I am going to take as much time as I want (just like the pros...")  These guys will simply shrug their shoulders after the round because there was no real consequence for their slow play. Scatter 5 or 6 of these guys in a field, and you can have 5 hours round, especially when fellow competitors also slow their pace down. I know that I slow down when competing against a "turtle" because it is an effective way to avoid being distracted by the pace.

Tim,

Have you ever been put on the clock? I'll grant you that unfortunate circumstances can cause your group to fall behind and get put on the clock. But even if you were "unfairly" put on the clock, there is no penalty unless you take more than 40 seconds to play your shot. Why would you ever need more than 40 seconds when playing your home course?

[Wade Whitehead]

A professional is being paid to play.

An amateur is paying to play.

Therein lies a reason many club pros have no interest in trying to identify and assess slow play penalties during member or customer events.

WW

[Tim Martin]

Bill-I can't imagine that there are officials in every group for the type of play you are describing. All it it takes is for one player to have to walk back to the tee after losing a ball and not playing a provisional. Once you are out of position in relation to the group(s) ahead you can be warned if I not mistaken with no reference to any specific time violation on a specific shot. I have never been on the clock.

[Wade Whitehead]

I once suggested, as a pace of play incentive, that the round be played with no flagsticks in the hole.

Keep up with the group ahead and you'll know pin locations.  Play slowly and you'll have no idea.

Of course, once a group falls behind, my idea falls apart.  It also does nothing to combat a slow first group out (sort of like 99% of all slow play solutions).

WW

[Will Peterson]

I would suggest trying a system similar to those instituted by many State Golf Associations using a time par.  It would cut down on the number of staff needed to monitor pace and having to confront members while on the course.

The system currently used by the FSGA seems to work very well, and I have been pleased with the overall pace of play in nearly all the events that I play.

A time par is set for the round.  Groups are checked after 9 and 18, and if they are not within the allotted time or 15 minutes of the group in front of them, the entire group is give a penalty (if it is obvious that a certain player is at fault, the entire group may not be penalized, but rather just that player).  There are no warnings, but groups can ask an official if they are on time at any point during the round.  They also print the time you should finish each hole on the scorecard, so it is easy to self monitor.  Additionally, the 15 minute rule ensures that as long as you are keeping up with the group in front of you, you are not in danger of being penalized because of a slow group somewhere in front of you.  

The penalty can be protested to the committee if there are extenuating circumstances, say a group finished a few minutes late, but had a lost ball on 17 or 18 which delayed them.

I probably play 15-20 FSGA rounds a year, and in nearly all of them, we are under the time par.  Pace is very consistent, and much better than other events that I play each year.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill-I can't imagine that there are officials in every group for the type of play you are describing. All it it takes is for one player to have to walk back to the tee after losing a ball and not playing a provisional. Once you are out of position in relation to the group(s) ahead you can be warned if I not mistaken with no reference to any specific time violation on a specific shot. I have never been on the clock.

There is not an official in every group. In MGA events, state events, etc. there a roving marshals watching the pace of play. I have never even been warned, but I caddied for a GREAT (slow) player who was warned and then our foursome was put on the clock. I freaked out a little, we were near the lead at the time...the but he said no problem, "I won't get penalized." He knew that all he had to do was play his shot in the allotted time

In an intra club event, I just envision our head pro or an assistant driving around in a cart keeping an eye on things. I swear that THAT alone will be enough for certain guys to cut out the stupid crap like stalking a putt for 2 minutes or more. If that fails, the pro can issue a simple warning to the group that has let a full hole open up ahead and ask them to catch up. Does that really seem like a big deal? Is that asking too much of our pro staff? And you are not "on the clock" until the official puts you on the clock, which obviously will only occur is players are playing slowly, NOT because of a lost ball situation. It is no big deal, just close the gap.

[jeffwarne]

I like to simply occasionally scream "while we're young" from hidden locations

[Bill Brightly]

I like to simply occasionally scream "while we're young" from hidden locations

Jeff, I think you are a pro, correct? So you probably wouldn't really do that at your course. But if the turtles with a hole open in front saw you coming during a tournament, I bet you wouldn't have to say anything. They would close the gap. Right?

[Jud_T]

Bill,

Are we talking about Medal Play events?  Twosomes or Foursomes?  I've never played in a club medal event with foursomes that finished in under 4 1/2 hours.  Match play twosomes is a horse of a different color.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

Are we talking about Medal Play events?  Twosomes or Foursomes?  I've never played in a club medal event with foursomes that finished in under 4 1/2 hours.  Match play twosomes is a horse of a different color.

We switched out medal play qualifying for the club championship to threesomes and the pace is usually ok most of the time.

This weekend is qualifying for the President's Cup, 50 guys for 31 spots, medal play. If they send us off in foursomes it will be brutal.

Jud, let's say we instituted the rule I am suggesting and you were paired with a known slow player. YOu might reasonably assume that your group would be on the clock at some point. Would that bother you? Or would you just ignore it, knowing that you'll never take more than 40 seconds to play a shot.

[jeffwarne]

I like to simply occasionally scream "while we're young" from hidden locations

Jeff, I think you are a pro, correct? So you probably wouldn't really do that at your course. But if the turtles with a hole open in front saw you coming during a tournament, I bet you wouldn't have to say anything. They would close the gap. Right?

It does-works on weekends too.
Sometimes I'm just trying to say hello

We have put people on the clock with 40 second limits during Club Championship-but 40 seconds is a LONG time.
as Tim says, most delays are before the timing starts (lost balls, dawdling)

Bill,
Why would you guys play fourballs in stroke play?
a recipe for a long day

[Jason Walker]

Bill,

Are we talking about Medal Play events?  Twosomes or Foursomes?  I've never played in a club medal event with foursomes that finished in under 4 1/2 hours.  Match play twosomes is a horse of a different color.

Jud,

Is this where we que up the music for how much better match play is than all other forms of golf?   

The bottom line is that in club tournament golf situations, medal play always takes longer than normal club play. Thankfully it's not more than a few times a year at most places.  After probably 100+ posts on the topic on this website over the last 10 years, I doubt it's going to change.

[Wade Whitehead]

I just got starting times for an upcoming qualifier for the Virginia State Open.  Groupings are all twosomes and threesomes.

I guess that's one way to tackle the pace of play issue.

WW

[Jud_T]

Bill,

Are we talking about Medal Play events?  Twosomes or Foursomes?  I've never played in a club medal event with foursomes that finished in under 4 1/2 hours.  Match play twosomes is a horse of a different color.

We switched out medal play qualifying for the club championship to threesomes and the pace is usually ok most of the time.

This weekend is qualifying for the President's Cup, 50 guys for 31 spots, medal play. If they send us off in foursomes it will be brutal.

Jud, let's say we instituted the rule I am suggesting and you were paired with a known slow player. YOu might reasonably assume that your group would be on the clock at some point. Would that bother you? Or would you just ignore it, knowing that you'll never take more than 40 seconds to play a shot.

Bill,

I'd probably love it cause I could be really annoying and rush him as much as possible then have something to blame besides my crap game for the next year... 

[Jud_T]

Bill,

Are we talking about Medal Play events?  Twosomes or Foursomes?  I've never played in a club medal event with foursomes that finished in under 4 1/2 hours.  Match play twosomes is a horse of a different color.

Jud,

Is this where we que up the music for how much better match play is than all other forms of golf?   

The bottom line is that in club tournament golf situations, medal play always takes longer than normal club play. Thankfully it's not more than a few times a year at most places.  After probably 100+ posts on the topic on this website over the last 10 years, I doubt it's going to change.

Jason,

I agree with you.  If clubs want to have Medal qualifiers or tournaments, so be it but 4 hour rounds will be tough to enforce in my experience.  And yes, cue the music...

[Bill Brightly]

My club has a strong tradition of not accepting slow play. Rounds over 4 hours are very rare for normal weekend play. We deal with the rare slow group with some good-natured ribbing at the bar, and also by "slow play letters" if needed. A very few number of members have been required to tee off after 10 AM after the warnings failed to change their habits.

Recently we've had some problems with pace of play in intra club matches and medal play qualifying. I think we should simply announce that Rule 6-7 will be enforced for selected events and require our pro staff to monitor the pace, warn groups that are out of position, and eventually put those groups "on the clock," if needed.

I am nearly certain that the threat alone will solve the slow play problem. I think the handful of guys who wait until it is their turn to putt and THEN start stalking their line will knock it off.

But do you think this is too strict? Would you be annoyed if your club instituted such procedures for an event? (I know that our pro staff would prefer not to be placed in the position of policeman, but I think it is required.) Personally, I think this simply reinforces our club's intolerance for slow play.

Thoughts?

If you really want to speed up tournament play, do not allow double carriers.  They're worth 15 minutes a round all by themselves.  

David, you have never seriously caddied... Two good double caddies will never add time to a round, especially when caddying for players who care about pace of play. A good caddy positions himself to be able to get away once player 1 has his club, and moves to player 2. A smart player who cares about pace of play grabs a couple of clubs when he misses a green and does not wait for the caddy. Trust me, while a poor caddy can slow up a group, the overall pace of play is determined by the players, not the  caddies.

Jeff,

I'm not sure how they will send us off this Saturday, Hopefully in threesomes.