[JNC Lyon]

Yesterday, I stopped at a municipal course in Fort Myers, Florida called Eastwood.  It was built in 1977 by Devlin and Von Hagge.  It has no houses, allows walking, and apparently is $12.50 after 3 PM.  I walked and carried my clubs on the front nine, and I was surprised at some of the interesting architecture out there.  One hole in particular stood out, the long par three fourth.  The hole plays about 230 from all the way back, and my first thought on the tee was "this is a poor man's Redan (both literally and figuratively)."  Here is a grainy iPhone photo that I posted to Twitter:

https://twitter.com/McLovinLyon/status/475391742746066944/photo/1

Now, the hole is not a pure Redan template by any stretch.  The hole says "draw" on the tee, but a straight ball will do just fine.  There is no front right kick plate, but there is a mound to the right of the green that will shrug a draw onto the putting surface.  There is a fronting left bunker, but the green is barely angled around it out.  A front left hole location isn't terribly accessible, but a right-to-left slope can help you feed in a shot.

The bottom line:  this isn't a carbon copy of the 15th at North Berwick, but it's solid public course par three with some Redan characteristics.

My question to y'all: at what point does a par three become a Redan?

[Tom_Doak]

For me, the three key characteristics of a Redan are

(1)  The angle of the green - approx. 45 degrees to the line of play,
(2)  The deep bunker guarding the inside angle of the green, and
(3)  The tilt of the green, with a shoulder at the front right (or front left for a reverse Redan) and the general tilt running away to the back end, which promotes two potential shot shapes instead of a straight ball.

Certainly there are a lot of holes built in imitation of the Redan, that have the first two right but not the third.  Some will call these Redans, but they are weak versions at best.  The tilt of the green is really what sets the hole apart. 

[Ian Andrew]

I would add that the right high shoulder has to be strong enough to promote the reason for playing a draw. I find this to be the difference between one that "plays" well and one that doesn't.

[Rich Goodale]

What Tom and Ian say, but it MUST be uphill.

[Carson Pilcher]

The tilt of the green is really what sets the hole apart. 

Agreed!!

[Tim_Weiman]

What Tom and Ian say, but it MUST be uphill.

Rich,

Doesn't that rule out NGLA?

[Tom_Doak]

What Tom and Ian say, but it MUST be uphill.

I could go with "It mustn't be too far downhill."  There's a point at which you don't think about the trajectory of your shot, because it's a drop shot and the trajectory isn't going to matter that much when the ball lands.  The 13th at Yale and 7th at Sleepy Hollow, while both Redans, don't really play like one.  The 4th at National certainly does, though.

Insisting that the hole play uphill is a bit strange, considering the original is pretty much level ... the elevation difference between the tee and green is certainly no more than 3-4 feet.

[DMoriarty]

Tom,

Your definition makes sense from a functional standpoint for regular redans but I've always wondered whether the same holds true for reverse redans.  IMO regular redans don't really function the way they are intended for lefties, so I imagine that the same hold true for righties playing reverse redans.  From a functionality standpoint, I wonder if the requirements should be somewhat different for the reverse version.

The old USGA Ag magazine had a write up on a par three hole that I believe they called the half saucer.  It diagramed a bit like a redan, but  instead of a consistent side/back slope the green was cupped like a saucer to help the ball take the contour and work to the bunker side of the green.  Maybe this would be a bit remedial to qualify as a real redan, but I always wondered if the concept might have worked better for a reverse redan concept.  

[Rich Goodale]

What Tom and Ian say, but it MUST be uphill.

I could go with "It mustn't be too far downhill."  There's a point at which you don't think about the trajectory of your shot, because it's a drop shot and the trajectory isn't going to matter that much when the ball lands.  The 13th at Yale and 7th at Sleepy Hollow, while both Redans, don't really play like one.  The 4th at National certainly does, though.

Insisting that the hole play uphill is a bit strange, considering the original is pretty much level ... the elevation difference between the tee and green is certainly no more than 3-4 feet.

Tom

If you created a homage to the Alps or the Himalayas at Preswtick, would a downhill shot to the green be appropriate?  The Redan is a blind shot from the tee!  To offer the golfer a glimpse of the green (as CBM did) is sacrilege!

Rich

[Mark McKeever]

What Tom and Ian say, but it MUST be uphill.

I could go with "It mustn't be too far downhill."  There's a point at which you don't think about the trajectory of your shot, because it's a drop shot and the trajectory isn't going to matter that much when the ball lands.  The 13th at Yale and 7th at Sleepy Hollow, while both Redans, don't really play like one.  The 4th at National certainly does, though.

Insisting that the hole play uphill is a bit strange, considering the original is pretty much level ... the elevation difference between the tee and green is certainly no more than 3-4 feet.

Tom, is the reverse redan and Sleepy Hollow disqualified?  I still try to land it short left with a low ball, despite it being downhill.

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

Those are different holes with different playing characteristics.
The elevation change at NGLA is so slight that it's not noticeable.
And the top of right side shoulder might be at or above the grade of the tee

David,

Morris County has a "true" reverse Redan  that's not a drop shot hole.

With reverse Redans and Redans I think a key is the juxtaposition of the tee to the green.
While the green may be at a 45 degree angle, where is the tee ?
I think it has to be at the high end of the green giving you the opening or chute into the putting surface.
Google Earth Morris County just outside of Morristown, N.J.

When playing it as a "righty" with a draw ball flight I always wanted to play "left" of the hole, and if I was in command of my game, I'd try to hit a fade into the green.

It's certainly a challenge, as Redans must be to you

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

Those are different holes with different playing characteristics.
The elevation change at NGLA is so slight that it's not noticeable.
And the top of right side shoulder might be at or above the grade of the tee

David,

Morris County has a "true" reverse Redan  that's not a drop shot hole.

With reverse Redans and Redans I think a key is the juxtaposition of the tee to the green.
While the green may be at a 45 degree angle, where is the tee ?
I think it has to be at the high end of the green giving you the opening or chute into the putting surface.
Google Earth Morris County just outside of Morristown, N.J.

When playing it as a "righty" with a draw ball flight I always wanted to play "left" of the hole, and if I was in command of my game, I'd try to hit a fade into the green.

It's certainly a challenge, as Redans must be to you

Pat

I have said many times that I consider the "Redan" at NGLA to be a superb golf hole, but that it is not a Redan.  If you were responsible for military strategy during the Crimean War assuming that the Redan was a downhill military fortress I doubt that Sevastopol would ever have been relieved.  But then again, you were a gyrene and not trained in strategy.....( insert ironic emoticon here).

[Phil Lipper]

Accordoing to CB McDonald in Scotlands gift
Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally and you have a Redan

[Bill Brightly]

Rich,

Those are different holes with different playing characteristics.
The elevation change at NGLA is so slight that it's not noticeable.
And the top of right side shoulder might be at or above the grade of the tee

David,

Morris County has a "true" reverse Redan  that's not a drop shot hole.

With reverse Redans and Redans I think a key is the juxtaposition of the tee to the green.
While the green may be at a 45 degree angle, where is the tee ?
I think it has to be at the high end of the green giving you the opening or chute into the putting surface.
Google Earth Morris County just outside of Morristown, N.J.

When playing it as a "righty" with a draw ball flight I always wanted to play "left" of the hole, and if I was in command of my game, I'd try to hit a fade into the green.

It's certainly a challenge, as Redans must be to you

Pat

I have said many times that I consider the "Redan" at NGLA to be a superb golf hole, but that it is not a Redan.  If you were responsible for military strategy during the Crimean War assuming that the Redan was a downhill military fortress I doubt that Sevastopol would ever have been relieved.  But then again, you were a gyrene and not trained in strategy.....( insert ironic emoticon here).

Rich, as much as I prefer an uphill Redan, and have used the Crimean War fortress as part of my argument, I think you are going a step too far when you say downhill Redans are not Redans. The hole received it's name due to the wood-facing that held up the wall to the front-left bunker. That is the feature that prompted to retired army officer to say it reminded him of the redan at Sevastopol. I'm sure the uphill nature of the hole added to his recollection of the battle, but without the most unusual wall, would the hole have been so named?

The fact remains that the hole inspired Macdonald. He chose to make the front-left bunker, the angling of the green, and the ability to use the natural tilt of the terrain to help feed the ball to the putting surface,  as the features he felt were most critical to reproduce. He obviously felt that a downhill Redan was not a prerequisite. Do you really feel qualified to declare that his downhill holes are not Redans?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

Those are different holes with different playing characteristics.
The elevation change at NGLA is so slight that it's not noticeable.
And the top of right side shoulder might be at or above the grade of the tee

David,

Morris County has a "true" reverse Redan  that's not a drop shot hole.

With reverse Redans and Redans I think a key is the juxtaposition of the tee to the green.
While the green may be at a 45 degree angle, where is the tee ?
I think it has to be at the high end of the green giving you the opening or chute into the putting surface.
Google Earth Morris County just outside of Morristown, N.J.

When playing it as a "righty" with a draw ball flight I always wanted to play "left" of the hole, and if I was in command of my game, I'd try to hit a fade into the green.

It's certainly a challenge, as Redans must be to you

Pat

I have said many times that I consider the "Redan" at NGLA to be a superb golf hole, but that it is not a Redan.  If you were responsible for military strategy during the Crimean War assuming that the Redan was a downhill military fortress I doubt that Sevastopol would ever have been relieved.  But then again, you were a gyrene and not trained in strategy.....( insert ironic emoticon here).

Rich,

The critical feature or military strategy utilized by the Redan is the ability of troops to be obscured by the leading edge of the fortification.
That's why golf balls can't be seen on the putting surface from the tee at NGLA, because the leading edge of the footpad/fortification is above the putting surface.   Thus, it functions as intended, in golf and in combat (ironic emoticon follows) 

[Greg Holland]

Is No. 6 at Pinehurst No. 2 a redan?  Ben Crenshaw just suggested on Golf Channel that it was Donald Ross's version of the redan, and one of his favorite holes on the course.

[DMoriarty]

Rich, as much as I prefer an uphill Redan, and have used the Crimean War fortress as part of my argument, I think you are going a step too far when you say downhill Redans are not Redans. The hole received it's name due to the wood-facing that held up the wall to the front-left bunker. That is the feature that prompted to retired army officer to say it reminded him of the redan at Sevastopol. I'm sure the uphill nature of the hole added to his recollection of the battle, but without the most unusual wall, would the hole have been so named?

The fact remains that the hole inspired Macdonald. He chose to make the front-left bunker, the angling of the green, and the ability to use the natural tilt of the terrain to help feed the ball to the putting surface,  as the features he felt were most critical to reproduce. He obviously felt that a downhill Redan was not a prerequisite. Do you really feel qualified to declare that his downhill holes are not Redans?

+1

[DMoriarty]

I don't think CBM's redan at NGLA was ever intended to be a "homage" in the sense that Rich tries to portray.  He wasn't building replica holes.  His understanding of the important characteristics of the hole was a bit more nuanced.  As importantly, CBM was working with what the land presented, not trying to jump through hoops to try and satisfy Rich's ilk.  Here is CBM's article on the Redan:

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi4h.pdf

At the time he built the hole over a century ago, it was very well regarded by many experts who were familiar with the original, including Ben Sayers:

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi5l.pdf

I have a feeling that in another century, the views of those such as CBM and Sayers will still prevail, and that Rich's perspective will remain in the margins.

[Buck Wolter]

I would think a reverse redan would make more sense downhill -- hard to hit a running uphill fade regardless of the turf conditions. St Louis CC's #16 looked a real test for the women at the Curtis Cup, especially Sunday with a back right pin, amazing numbers of shots long and left, trying to chip back up --I assume they were protecting against the front bunker but several didn't find the green with their chip shots.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Buck,

I agree with Tom Doak in that those downhill holes transition from Redans to "Drop Shot" holes as the trajectory of the tee shot steepens.

I think a true Redan has to retain the playing features as evidenced at NB, NGLA, and PR.

LACC and Sleepy Hollow's holes are good holes, but, I find them to be hybrids rather than purebreds.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  You may be right, but I a lefty can get the ball to run onto the green at LACC despite the downhill because of the length of the hole and because of the ground contours short and left of the hole.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat

You forgot to mention 4@Hidden Creek

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/HiddenCreek/pages/page_28.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat

You forgot to mention 4@Hidden Creek

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/HiddenCreek/pages/page_28.html

Steve,

You're right, but, I don't consider that a "drop shot" hole, not like LACC and SH

How great would that hole be if it played in reverse ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

It would be a terrific Reverse Redan but I've always had problems with 4 as it is.

[Niall C]

I don't think CBM's redan at NGLA was ever intended to be a "homage" in the sense that Rich tries to portray.  He wasn't building replica holes.  His understanding of the important characteristics of the hole was a bit more nuanced.  As importantly, CBM was working with what the land presented, not trying to jump through hoops to try and satisfy Rich's ilk.  Here is CBM's article on the Redan:

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi4h.pdf

At the time he built the hole over a century ago, it was very well regarded by many experts who were familiar with the original, including Ben Sayers:

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi5l.pdf

I have a feeling that in another century, the views of those such as CBM and Sayers will still prevail, and that Rich's perspective will remain in the margins.

so, is the Redan a "Redan" ?

Niall

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