single irrigation lines

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,

have you thought that the 50% poa is because of irrigation abuse? The rate of die back from drought in the poa is not so quick as prevent other stronger grasses to replace it at an appropriate pace. This is of course something that needs doing gradually over several seasons.

Poa, bent, fescue, bermudagrass, any turfgrass you can name, all have one thing in common. If, during growing conditions, they are deprived of water for extended periods of time they will die. No question. I have witnessed it with my own eyes. It only varies for each species how long it might tolerate the stress.

Steve,

you keep coming up with gems don't you. You are correct if talking about no rainfall over many, many months combined with heat and wind but the discussion is not about such Saharan weather but rather south of England. If you are correct in your assertions then all turfgrass that is not irrigated would die leaving vast swathes of the countryside a dessert. Yet even in dry summers such as 2003 and 2013 the south of England was not so and the grass did not die except swards weakened by imprudent maintenance practices.

Jon

Jon

Not according to STRI or R&A or indeed our moisture meter.

We're encouraging the reduction of poa but killing it in a hot dry summer doesn't seem sensible in a commercial environment.

[Steve Okula]

Ryan,

have you thought that the 50% poa is because of irrigation abuse? The rate of die back from drought in the poa is not so quick as prevent other stronger grasses to replace it at an appropriate pace. This is of course something that needs doing gradually over several seasons.

Poa, bent, fescue, bermudagrass, any turfgrass you can name, all have one thing in common. If, during growing conditions, they are deprived of water for extended periods of time they will die. No question. I have witnessed it with my own eyes. It only varies for each species how long it might tolerate the stress.

Steve,

you keep coming up with gems don't you. You are correct if talking about no rainfall over many, many months combined with heat and wind but the discussion is not about such Saharan weather but rather south of England. If you are correct in your assertions then all turfgrass that is not irrigated would die leaving vast swathes of the countryside a dessert. Yet even in dry summers such as 2003 and 2013 the south of England was not so and the grass did not die except swards weakened by imprudent maintenance practices.

Jon

How long were the the droughts in 2003 and 2013 and what were the temperatures?

"Vast swaths of countryside" are not maintained as turfgrass suitable for golf. Unmown pasture grasses are not turfgrasses and have much deeper root systems and are much hardier plants. I thought you might have known that.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

I caveated with 'This is of course something that needs doing gradually over several seasons'. Funny that you say reduction for what you do but killing when misinterpreting what I am saying. I little double standards there.

Steve,

read my post and try keeping your comments within  the context of what I wrote. 2003 & 2013 were about as drought extreme as it gets here in the UK so good examples. Of course you are right about fields of hay but the un-irrigated fairways of many southern courses still kept their grass and I seem to remember that fairways are still considered TURFGRASS.

Jon

[Jeff_Brauer]

Always wondered what portion of the irrigation cost was really to avoid "some browning" in drier seasons. Somewhere between 1977 when I entered the biz, and 2000, the systems mostly seemed to be designed for green no matter what.  In tech terms, they were designed for 1" per week (typical need) and if demand got to 1.5" a week, or 2" a week, you browned out.  Or, you ran more sprinklers during the day to catch up (watering from 10A-6P now illegal is some spots)  Now, I think many systems are designed for at least 1.5" per week, applied at .2" per night, everywhere.

I once asked a veteran super what the biggest problem/risk of extending irrigation into the afternoon hours on those really hot days.  He said it was the some of the old guys might strip down and run through the sprinklers naked.......who wants to see that?

[Steve Okula]

Ryan,

I caveated with 'This is of course something that needs doing gradually over several seasons'. Funny that you say reduction for what you do but killing when misinterpreting what I am saying. I little double standards there.

Steve,

read my post and try keeping your comments within  the context of what I wrote. 2003 & 2013 were about as drought extreme as it gets here in the UK so good examples. Of course you are right about fields of hay but the un-irrigated fairways of many southern courses still kept their grass and I seem to remember that fairways are still considered TURFGRASS.

Jon

Just for the record, if we may accept London as representative of southern England, rainfalls in 2013 looked like this.

May          49.1 mm   96% (compared to historical average)
June     15.6 mm   28%
July      36.2 mm   86%
August    51.3 mm   97%
September 61.3 mm   108%

source:
nw3weather.co.uk/wx12.php

Apparently, there was a supremely arid stretch of three weeks in June with no rain.

Seriously.

[Jon Wiggett]

Steve,

if you can find any data showing anything more extreme than that then let us know. However, in the context of the UK/south of England and the need for irrigation then yep that looks right. Good to see that you also do not think that it experiences such extremes as to kill Turfgrass without irrigation despite you trying to push that point.

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,

I caveated with 'This is of course something that needs doing gradually over several seasons'. Funny that you say reduction for what you do but killing when misinterpreting what I am saying. I little double standards there.

Steve,

read my post and try keeping your comments within  the context of what I wrote. 2003 & 2013 were about as drought extreme as it gets here in the UK so good examples. Of course you are right about fields of hay but the un-irrigated fairways of many southern courses still kept their grass and I seem to remember that fairways are still considered TURFGRASS.

Jon

Jon

If we didn't have irrigation last summer. They would've died.

[Steve Okula]

Steve,

if you can find any data showing anything more extreme than that then let us know. However, in the context of the UK/south of England and the need for irrigation then yep that looks right. Good to see that you also do not think that it experiences such extremes as to kill Turfgrass without irrigation despite you trying to push that point.

Jon

My point is that in fact the south of England did not suffer any truly damaging drought or heat stress in 2013, therfore that experience cannot be used as a basis for the management of turfgrass nor the necessity of irrigation systems in the UK and much less the world over.

[Steve Okula]

Always wondered what portion of the irrigation cost was really to avoid "some browning" in drier seasons. Somewhere between 1977 when I entered the biz, and 2000, the systems mostly seemed to be designed for green no matter what.  In tech terms, they were designed for 1" per week (typical need) and if demand got to 1.5" a week, or 2" a week, you browned out.  Or, you ran more sprinklers during the day to catch up (watering from 10A-6P now illegal is some spots)  Now, I think many systems are designed for at least 1.5" per week, applied at .2" per night, everywhere.

I once asked a veteran super what the biggest problem/risk of extending irrigation into the afternoon hours on those really hot days.  He said it was the some of the old guys might strip down and run through the sprinklers naked.......who wants to see that?

It doesn't matter if an irrigation system was over-designed, it doesn't have to be used that way. Just because your car could go 120 mph doesn't mean you should drive at that speed. Only a  (dare I use the word?)  moron would simply throw water out there just because he had the capacity.

Now, if the system were under-designed, and lacked control dexterity and distribution uniformity, it might be impossible to keep the turf both alive and still avoid soggy areas.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ryan,

I caveated with 'This is of course something that needs doing gradually over several seasons'. Funny that you say reduction for what you do but killing when misinterpreting what I am saying. I little double standards there.

Steve,

read my post and try keeping your comments within  the context of what I wrote. 2003 & 2013 were about as drought extreme as it gets here in the UK so good examples. Of course you are right about fields of hay but the un-irrigated fairways of many southern courses still kept their grass and I seem to remember that fairways are still considered TURFGRASS.

Jon

Jon

If we didn't have irrigation last summer. They would've died.

Several Bristol golf courses are on google earth from July 2013. Lots of evidence of drainage lines and on our Stranahan I can see the stressed areas are well brown. We used 1250mm of water in 2013 from our lake which is getting near a maximum. SO TO CONCLUDE BRISTOL GOLF COURSES needed substantial water in 2013. 2012 was a different story.

[john_stiles]

Some courses with a single row in fairway centerline would like to spend a million plus on multiple rows, at least in my neighborhood.

[Jon Wiggett]

Steve,

if you can find any data showing anything more extreme than that then let us know. However, in the context of the UK/south of England and the need for irrigation then yep that looks right. Good to see that you also do not think that it experiences such extremes as to kill Turfgrass without irrigation despite you trying to push that point.

Jon

My point is that in fact the south of England did not suffer any truly damaging drought or heat stress in 2013, therfore that experience cannot be used as a basis for the management of turfgrass nor the necessity of irrigation systems in the UK and much less the world over.

That's because we really do not suffer from true drought in the UK Steve. That is the whole point.

Adrian,

Drainage lines will show up quite quickly of they are shallow. Having said that there is nothing wrong in them showing through in drier times as it shows they are working. Are the area brown because they are stressed or are you concluding they stressed because they are brown? Did the grass in your non irrigated areas die off in 2013? Grass browning off is a natural reaction to dry periods and ideally you want the turf and upper rootzone to be dry-ish.

I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong Adrian and from what I know about you, you know enough to make a good decision. I just do not agree that in the UK course need irrigation. Yes, they will brown off in the summer but the quality of the playing surface would be better all year round for it IMO.


Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jon we used 1250mm off the irrigation lake so it was a dry year in 2013.

We water to keep the grass alive. We use as little as possible. We water fairways, tees, approaches, greens and the practice tee, short game areas. We have 45 holes. Our greens are USGA so comprise 80% sand so no chance of not watering those.

If you look at google earth the clubs around us are pretty brown, Henbury in particular is quite golden. The grass did not die in any of these situations, it is just the quality would be rubbish if you did not water the greens and you would lose £££££

It all depends on standards that you want to keep for a golf course, but you need water on the greens in this part of the country, the ones that don't have it appear to the masses as cack and they don't have many members or visitors.

Our golf club is 30 minutes from Painswick. Most of our members have never even heard of it. The ones around Painswick that have water take their business....it is mainly about condition for most people when they decide where to go.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

firstly, I m not talking against irrigating greens and especially if you have gone with USGA (FLL is a better option) however with fairways (which is the topic 'single irrigation lines') I do not see the need. Yes the grass will brown off and the ground will firm up but the quality should not suffer and it allows for the course to be opened up even more so less ball searching.

I can see the need for the practice tee as you need rapid regeneration but if your tees on the course are big enough then watering should be only needed very rarely. Is not the problem for Painswick more that most golfers really just do not get it.

Jon

[Jason Thurman]

Jeff makes a good point about 3 or 4 row, and Steve sort of makes the same point. As a member, I'd want my course to have a system with adequate bandwidth to cover all turf that needs to be kept playable.

Of course, I hope the superintendent doesn't use the system to its full capacity all the time. But here where I live, we do have real droughts in the summer coupled with very hot weather. Without the ability to put water down, we lose turf.

Then again, too much water at those times can be equally damaging, as turf disease and fungus can wreak havoc when temperatures are high and the turf stays wet. A good superintendent is probably far more valuable than any irrigation system. Regardless of what system you have, it needs to be used correctly.

Pinehurst is really a unique situation, as not really the model for post-modern conditioning that it seems GCA wishes it would be.