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Ryan McLaughlin

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Cal Amateur at La Costa
« on: June 06, 2014, 10:14:22 PM »
Pairings are out today for Cal Am at La Costa in two weeks.  I've played the Champions a number of times but won't get to play Legends until next Saturday .  I really like what they have done there and I am sure Legends will be an improvement like Champions.  I personally really like the area and style of the course there.  There was a deep discussion  a few years ago about La Cumbre and the nor cal vs so cal options since they've moved from Pebble.  Anyone have thoughts on this venue or future potential venues?

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 11:07:48 PM »
La Cumbre was fine; I'd heard a lot of bad stuff but it was a really nice place. I like Lake Merced more, but I'd say they were comparable in general quality. I'm expecting good things from La Costa but I haven't been there in 15 years. I'll try to report back in a week or so.

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2014, 05:40:56 PM »
Matt,

Did you qualify?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 11:33:17 PM »
I'll indeed be there. Practice rounds Saturday and Sunday. Competition starts Monday.

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2014, 08:36:23 AM »
Matt,

Congratulations and good luck in the Event. Hopefully Jeff  has e-mailed his notes on the restoration!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Ryan McLaughlin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2014, 10:06:28 AM »
It would be nice if Jeff gave us a look behind the curtain!  I can only get one practice in on Saturday at Legends.  Should be a fun event.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 12:57:04 PM »
Sorry, not sure how much insight you can give on the net.....

That said, the Champions was redone in pretty much the Wilson style. After viewing the results, the owner requested the Legends be made a bit easier - with fewer, flatter bunkers - to give members an easier option on a daily basis.

It will be interesting to see the score differences, if any from Cal's best players.  Good luck, and I hope the courses are in great shape for you......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ryan McLaughlin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2014, 10:33:35 AM »
I really enjoyed Legends yesterday.  The bunkering and green complexes really make you think from the tee or fariway.  I found it interesting the transition from rough surrounding the green to the fringe.  It took putter out your hands most of the time.  That should be great for my "excellent" chipping skills!  The offshore afternoon breeze coming home on the front and back final holes create quite a challenge.  Looking forward to Monday and Tuesday.

Frank Sekulic

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Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 05:34:11 PM »
Matt, What time are you playing? I live 2 miles west of LaCosta and would love to come over and cheer you on.

 

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2014, 06:30:22 PM »
Matt, What time are you playing? I live 2 miles west of LaCosta and would love to come over and cheer you on.

 


Ditto. I too live about 10 mins from the course and if time permits, I'd love to come out and support Matt and Ryan.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2014, 01:38:30 PM »
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 01:41:18 PM by David_Tepper »

David_Tepper

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Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2014, 08:16:06 PM »
The 36-hole qualifying has been completed. It took +3 to make the matchplay. Eleven guys were under par and eight more were even par, very impressive!

http://www.ghintpp.com/calam/TPPOnlineScoring/ResultsStroke.aspx?id=95
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 10:46:48 PM by David_Tepper »

David_Tepper

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Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2014, 09:10:40 AM »
Always interesting to read what Randy Haag has to say:

http://randyhaag.com/

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2014, 03:44:37 PM »
La Cumbre was fine; I'd heard a lot of bad stuff but it was a really nice place. I like Lake Merced more, but I'd say they were comparable in general quality. I'm expecting good things from La Costa but I haven't been there in 15 years. I'll try to report back in a week or so.

Matt,

I disagree, La Cumbre is far from a championship venue that the California State Am deserves.  I will say that unlike MPCC , at least the membership and club in general were excited that we were there.  No guards were there to make sure the best players in CA , aka riff raff, would wander unaccompanied around their clubhouse.  Lake Merced is a far better golf course than La Cumbre, and certainly more of a championship layout. 

La Costa was blah, we were not treated with any respect, the public played one both courses after the first round, does that happen in any other state ams?  I will admit that it did happen at Pebble Beach as well, in fact afternoon match play matches I have had to play through public groups.   However, we were playing a US Open venue so I was willing not be so harsh.    A long stretch from the days , that Randy Haag discusses, were we played either Cypress, or Spy and Pebble and had each course closed for the Tournament. 

How about the fact that at La Costa, we couldn't hit free range balls after our round?  I am not sure if you could hit any balls off of grass after the round?  The greens while bent and very true were rolling about 9 and certainly not what many of us would consider tournament speeds. 

Here is a little story from a friend of mine.  He came down to La Costa on Sunday and didn't have time to play a practice round, so he wanted to grab a cart, they did allow carts during the practice rounds, and drive each course, take notes etc.  They indicated that he couldn't due to liability issues.  But he could grab a cart and play golf, and the tee was open.  Needless to say,  he trucked back up the hill to grab his clubs with his 4 year old daughter in tow, walked back down , put the clubs on the cart and proceeded to tee off and drive both courses after hitting the one shot.   

Amateur golf is quickly falling by the waste side, at least in Southern California.  LACC, Riviera, Torrey Pines, should all be jumping at the chance to host the State Am , but instead we get Oakmont/Lakeside, Rancho Santa Fe ( which I like) and La Jolla (uggh),  La Costa ... at least every other year we get to play some of the best courses in Nor Cal, they seem to be able to get their excellent courses to host the event. 

The Tournament should have never left Pebble Beach and the California Golf Association should have shamed the Pebble Beach Company by writing a letter to the editor of Golfweek, GolfDigest, The golf Channel, NY Times, Chicago Tribune, Wall Street Journal.  Or at least starting thinking out of the box by getting corporate sponsors to add revenue to keep the tournament at Pebble. 

I should consider myself lucky, I am 43 now, and may not have that many State Ams left as my back deteriorates, at least I got to play cypress, spyglass and pebble as well as more than few matches at Pebble Beach.   
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2014, 01:25:59 AM »
I was fortunate to play Cal Ams back in the glory days of Pebble and CPC/

For any members associated with Rancho Santa Fe, La Cumbre, Lake Merced
Lakeside, or Oakmont.   How many thank you letters did the club and membership receive for hosting these
events?  I should have been better when I played at this.  I tried my best to go in person the thank our hosts,
wish I did a better job of sending notes.

I have witnessed some amazing acts of entitlement when attending with students at a couple of these
events.  I'm not sure about members on course after a round, or no practice balls.  But I do remember
NOT being allowed a practice round at CPC in my 2 Cal AMs, and nobody bitched.
If you are playing a tournament at someone else's course, try being a grateful guest, maybe it will help get
better courses?


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2014, 12:57:07 PM »
Nice pairing of two teenagers this morning in the round of 16: SoCal's Beau Hossler vs. NorCal's Shintaro Ban. Hossler made a splash at the 2012 US Open and Ban recently won the SF City.   

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2014, 02:30:17 PM »
David,

Superintendent says greens officially stimped at 11.

Sorry you didn't have a great experience. With the buyout by Omni, LC has a lot of new staff and that might have contributed to some less than usually stellar service there. 

Given your WD, would I be right in guessing your aching back might have contributed to your less than stellar experience in the CALAM?  I hate golf when my back is sore!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2014, 02:45:04 PM »
David,

Superintendent says greens officially stimped at 11.

Sorry you didn't have a great experience. With the buyout by Omni, LC has a lot of new staff and that might have contributed to some less than usually stellar service there. 

Given your WD, would I be right in guessing your aching back might have contributed to your less than stellar experience in the CALAM?  I hate golf when my back is sore!

Yes to my sore back.  That is becoming  a constant and really has no bearing on the experience.  For the record, I had no issues with my practice round, or the experience other than that the greens were not set up in a championship manner.  For the record, the resort itself was wonderful, a great location and if you are not looking for fantastic golf, I would highly recommend it.  However, I hold the CGA amateur championship to a very high standard, one that isn't being met on most occasions anymore. 

There is ZERO chance those greens were 11, ZERO.  They might have been 10, and I emphasize might.  Almost every player that finished was amazed about how slow the greens were.  They were just as slow during the practice rounds.  I understand that they are new bent on the South Course ( Legends ) and cannot risk the integrity of the turf by stressing the grass, but the other side is 2 years into its growing phase, and could have been made faster, I have no idea. 

Still need to play Pine Valley!!

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2014, 02:52:46 PM »
I was fortunate to play Cal Ams back in the glory days of Pebble and CPC/

For any members associated with Rancho Santa Fe, La Cumbre, Lake Merced
Lakeside, or Oakmont.   How many thank you letters did the club and membership receive for hosting these
events?  I should have been better when I played at this.  I tried my best to go in person the thank our hosts,
wish I did a better job of sending notes.

I have witnessed some amazing acts of entitlement when attending with students at a couple of these
events.  I'm not sure about members on course after a round, or no practice balls.  But I do remember
NOT being allowed a practice round at CPC in my 2 Cal AMs, and nobody bitched.
If you are playing a tournament at someone else's course, try being a grateful guest, maybe it will help get
better courses?



Pat ,

I know our paths have crossed before but I am not sure we have ever played together or met other than in passing.   Almost all these kids that play in the state am are grateful and appreciative.  sure there are entitled, asshats, but they are everywhere and certainly don't represent the vast majority of contestants.    However, that shouldn't have anything to do with the club's deciding to host the event and in doing so, making a few items necessities that make a tournament special.  CPC is special enough to get away with not allowing practice rounds but it should be the exception to the rule.  Other than MPCC,  the NCGA courses seem to understand that certain items are necessities when deciding to host and event, while the courses in SoCal seem to be way to full of themselves to allow the contestants to use the locker rooms? the range after a round?  Either host the event and embrace it or don't.  The fact that the CGA has to allow the clubs to dictate these terms is too bad.  The state am used to be special, and since it has left Pebble, it has lost a lot of that luster. 
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2014, 11:50:58 PM »
I just got back home after some not-very-good play (78-77, MC by 8) and an extra day in San Diego to play Maderas (a very fun but difficult course — of course there I managed to shoot under par) with an old friend.

I definitely understand where David is coming from, although I'd probably temper my comments in some regards, both because I know the CGA/NCGA/SCGA folks put a lot of effort into the event and also because I realize that playing a golf tournament at La Costa is about as far into the "It's a Privilege, Not a Right" category as one can possibly go.

It's fair to say that we were not entirely welcomed with open arms; it's not that La Costa made things difficult for us, although a significant number of folks (including myself) seemed to have an unpleasant interaction or two with the resort or its staff over the course of the event. (Maybe things got better once they got us riff-raff out of the way and got down to the final 32 — I wouldn't know, unfortunately!) It's just that La Costa is such a big, enormous, money-making operation that we were pretty clearly just "yet another thing" going on there during the week. It's not a golf resort. It's more like a small city, and that makes it very different from playing a Cal Amateur at Lake Merced or La Cumbre where we are the only thing going on at the facility the whole time.

I will second some of the concerns David mentioned, like not being able to use the range after the round (even for a fee), having lunch pulled away while some players were still on the course, the flow of large delivery trucks past the #1 tee on Legends, and having a snack cart driving around the course during play. The occurences were not exactly consistent with a premier championship, but they do come with the territory of playing at a major resort.

Before I get to specifically to the courses, I will also agree with David that there was no way the greens were 11. Maybe 10? Maybe not. It's a bit hard to tell because there was grain going in the same direction as the slopes, but I left some downhill, down-grain putts short in a way that should have been impossible if 11 was the true number. The greens were slower than what I would expect at such an event, although they did roll very well. They were very firm, too, on both courses, probably just because they're still new.

I found the courses both enjoyable and the Champions slightly harder, as their ratings would indicate. I don't know if there are any truly great holes, although there aren't any bad ones either. Mostly the Champions has more water and therefore more chances for a big number. The bunkers on Champions are deep, especially the fairway bunkers; they are true hazards. Champions is also longer but that's not really the issue as much as the hazards are. The only part of the course I might pick on is that there are several similar teeshots with lakes on the right — 9, 11 and 13 at an angle, and 17 and 18 with water parallel on the right — and none with lakes on the left. I didn't really like 17, which looked kind of strange to me and had some rather artificial mounding around the green, but that really was the only hole on Champions where I felt that way. 18 is a very difficult par-5 to finish: from the back tees almost 600 yards (stroke play at about 540), into the wind, with hazards on both sides all the way up. The routing is a bit awkward from 9-12, but it was that way before. Other than 17, I would give the folks in charge a good grade for the renovation. There are plenty of challenges, a lot of really nice visuals, and a number of strategic choices to be made. My favorite holes on the course are 1-3 and 13-16, all of which are basically the same as they've always been other than 15, the new short par-4, which I thought was really well done.

As for the Legends, its front nine is pretty clearly the least distinguished nine on the property. This is mostly because it starts with 5 consecutive par-4's, four of which I played with a hybrid off the tee and three of which have homes on both sides (the only holes on the property where this occurs). Those first five holes are okay-ish individually, but as a group they're not very good. If I had to choose one course to play, it would be the Champions, mostly because of the Legends' first five holes. Legnds picks up from 6 onwards, and particularly after the turn.

One interesting comparison is that the Legends is generally more low-key from tee to green, but the architect's hand is more obvious around the greens than it was on the Champions. The Champions' greens are generally more wavy/rolling, and the Legends' more tiered/sectioned. For example, the green at the par-5 7th on Legends has a narrow middle plateau from the front to the back of the green, with symmetrical lower wings left and right; it wasn't really in any way natural. There are a few of these spots around the Legends. I also didn't like the new Legends #17. The old one was a famous and great hole — an intimidating 570 yards (with old balls and persimmon woods!) with the lake hard against the layup and green. The new one is 525 and wide, with a manufactured green complex that looks like Florida and the water less in play. Again I preferred the holes that were more like updated versions of the originals, specifically 13-15, which I think is the best stretch on the property, and 18, which is really hard at 457 into the wind and right at sea level.

One final note on the Legends is that the fairways are planted with paspalum. If you haven't played on it, it's like a cross between kikuyu (or zoysia) and bermuda. As was planned, I think average players will prefer these more cushioned fairways, while very good players will like the tighter lies on the Champions course's bermuda.

La Costa is not Bandon Dunes, and it's not all about golf. If you're looking for a pure golf experience, don't go there. You'll feel awkward as you walk past ballrooms and restaurants and waterslides and Starbucks and the hotel lobby to get to the pro shop, and on weekends you'll get annoyed by the thumping house music emanating from the all-day party at the adults-only pool. (You can hear it easily from 1,000 yards away downwind.) If you want a true luxury resort with a million things to do including a couple of beautiful, well-conditioned golf courses, then by those standards, you can't do much better than La Costa. It's gorgeous and pristine. Like most places, how you feel about it depends on what you want out of your time on the grounds.


Ryan McLaughlin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2014, 09:17:43 AM »
I really didn't have any issues with the resort staff but I didn't make much of an effort to try to interact with them.  We parked in the dirt lot and walked through the members lot.  All the moms were very friendly as they were heading to the pool  ;).  I did find it interesting that they set up about half the driving range with spots for a 156 person tournament but we just created our own spots.  I thought the NCGA/SCGA folks put on a great tournament and they have very good official coverage where it was needed.  Ive always enjoyed the Champs course but I had a very hard time on the greens, 6 three putts on the day.  My biggest challenge was actually getting the ball to the hole even on downhill sloping putts and then just completely mis-reading the par putt.  That of course was a me issue not a course issue but I would say it was generous to say they were rolling 10, true but slow.    Legends has some interesting holes and I think it's true strength is the par threes.  Some of the funky levels and tiers I can do without, 6, 15, 16.  Tough challenge.  I guess I was surprised by the overall high scores. 

All that being said, it was a good experience and a privilege to be there.  I got to play a practice round with a couple Chico State players which for this Wildcat was a real bonus.  I had my 8 year play hookie to come watch for 9 holes on Tuesday which was really special.  I attempted to qualify on a whim so I had very low expectations.  I wouldn't have even tried if it wasn't relatively close to home.  Maybe next time when LACC decides to host we will give it a whirl. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2014, 10:10:03 AM »
Matt,

That is a reasonable assessment of the LC experience.  When KSL had it, their mantra was "multiple revenue streams."
Thus, the private/resort component of golf, the various pools, plazas, yoga center, etc. etc. etc.  The attempts to be different things to different people sure take away from the identity as a golf resort, but until KSL took over (Omni now owns it) and put in many millions, its rep in golf had been slowly going downhill anyway while other good resorts had been built. 

And many who come to play like the ideas of playing a former T of Champions layout, even though you can't really play it as in the tourney, and of course, there were some changes made in the name of turf, drainage, safety, etc.  But, even those guys couldn't overlook the condition the courses were in before the reno.

Anyway, it was interesting to follow the tourney, and always try to interpret the comments in terms of architecture related experiences.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2014, 11:34:37 AM »
Back to the NorCal v SoCal courses for a moment.

While might be fair to blame the CGA for not finding quality courses in SoCal, I'm not sure NorCal deserves such lofty praise.  MPCC has hosted 2 of the 4 NorCal CGA's with the one at Olympic and one at Lake Merced (Lake Merced is hosting in 2015).  

If MPCC would not have hosted the 2nd and 3rd time, what suitable options are there in NorCal that would want to host the event?

Does the need for two courses eliminate many possible venues?  To that point, with a 156 player field, why are two courses required for qualifying during a time of the year with the longest days of the year?


Ps:  It is my opinion that the level of excitement/support by MPCC to host has changed since they have acquired a spot in the ATT Pebbele Beach Invitational.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 06:56:37 PM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2014, 01:06:18 PM »
Mike:

That question was asked by someone familiar back in 2007:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,29851.100.html
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cal Amateur at La Costa
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2014, 02:28:10 PM »
Back to the NorCal v SoCal courses for a moment.

While might be fair to blame the CGA for not finding quality courses in SoCal, I'm not sure NorCal deserves such lofty praise.  MPCC has hosted 3 of the 5 NorCal CGA's with the other 2 at Olympic and Lake Merced (Lake Merced is hosting in 2015).  

If MPCC would not have hosted the 2nd and 3rd time, what suitable options are there in NorCal that would want to host the event?

Does the need for two courses eliminate many possible venues?  To that point, with a 156 player field, why are two courses required for qualifying during a time of the year with the longest days of the year?


Ps:  It is my opinion that the level of excitement/support by MPCC to host has changed since they have acquired a spot in the ATT Pebbele Beach Invitational.

One course is fine in June, but they have to be willing to give up their course for 5-6 full days. 
Still need to play Pine Valley!!