SOG with Ran, Pinehurst greens being "puffed up"

[Gary Sato]

Listening to the State of the Game podcast on a long trip home last night, Mr. Shackelford stated he loved everything about the restoration at Pinehurst except he felt some of the greens are "too puffed up".

Ran seemed ambivalent.  In reviewing his course profile, I didn't see any blatant photos demonstrating that certain greens are puffed up.

With the greens slated for a new grass in the future, will certain greens be modified?

[Ronald Montesano]

What does puffed up entail, helium dressing?

[Gary Sato]

Geoff professed his desire for greens that are a natural extension of the fairways and felt at Pinehurst there are certain greens that don't feel that way.

Ran felt that some could be modified just slightly.  He noted the front of certain greens as well as a few other humps.

[Jim Hoak]

I'm with Ronald; I still don't know what "puffed up" means.

[mike_malone]

Pinehurst has a set of interviews of players as they end their practice round. Rory says about the greens" hit it in the middle of the green". Is that an indictment?

[Bill_Yates]

Tell me what I'm missing. I thought "crowned greens" were supposed to be crowned ie. with false fronts, sides, backs or whatever. And that might explain why Rory is smart enough to aim for the middle. Believe me, the run-off surrounds are all tightly mowed slopes, bunkers or waste areas.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Well, it's bentgrass in the summer in the South, so of course the greens are "puffed up."  You would see a very distinct puffy ballmark right now.  There's likely two guys (F9, B9) running around all day with hoses syringing them to ensure that they don't die all afternoon.  So they will be slightly damp virtually all day, and so now you see why they are going to ultradwarf Bermuda.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

deleted

[BCowan]

Well, it's bentgrass in the summer in the South, so of course it's "puffed up."  You would see a very distinct puffy ballmark right now.  There's likely two guys (F9, B9) running around all day with hoses syringing them to ensure that they don't die all afternoon.  So they will be slightly damp virtually all day, and so now you see why they are going to ultradwarf Bermuda.

I played it in 98' it was 110 degs out and the greens were perfect.  Firm and fast.  They will only Syringe them once a day if it is too hot.  Your ball mark theory holds no water.  UD is less summer maint. but more winter maint. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoff professed his desire for greens that are a natural extension of the fairways and felt at Pinehurst there are certain greens that don't feel that way.[

Pinehurst # 2's green NEVER felt like they were natural extensions of the fairway.

GCGC yes, P#2 no

Ran felt that some could be modified just slightly.  He noted the front of certain greens as well as a few other humps.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Well, it's bentgrass in the summer in the South, so of course it's "puffed up."  You would see a very distinct puffy ballmark right now.  There's likely two guys (F9, B9) running around all day with hoses syringing them to ensure that they don't die all afternoon.  So they will be slightly damp virtually all day, and so now you see why they are going to ultradwarf Bermuda.

I played it in 98' it was 110 degs out and the greens were perfect.  Firm and fast.  They will only Syringe them once a day if it is too hot.  Your ball mark theory holds no water.  UD is less summer maint. but more winter maint.  

I played it on a hot day in August of '08 and the greens were damp, ballmarks were "puffy", and they were rolling about a 9 on the stimp.  The greens had no fire or bounce, and I only got "hogsbacked" once on basically a duff.  I still had a blast and love the course.  I guess our experiences were different.  Nice pun though.

[Niall C]

A very good friend of mine is just back from a trip to Pinehurst where he played No. 2 twice. He told me that on 3 seperate occasions he had a 20 to 30 foot putt where he hit putts that he was happy with only to see them end up in a bunker. He was laughing when he told the story but I don't know he thought much of the concept.

Also, if it's all about hitting the middle of the green as Rory suggests, does that not kind of reduce any strategic concept that the course might have ?

Niall

[BCowan]

If the greens are kept at speeds that aren't what the archie imagined, then how is it fair to criticize the arch of the course when it is the Green Speeds Arms Race which is to blame?

[Dan Herrmann]

Does "puffy" = "thatchy"?

[Adam Clayman]

C&C were reluctant to tinker with the greens. Other than 17? (last one shoter) where they felt they needed to restore a lower left pin position.

If they look puffier, perhaps it's a function on getting rid of that stupid rough cut?

[Sean_A]

I think Ran means domed when he wrote "puffed up", but I could be wrong.  Like Brian, I like the layout of #2, but remain unconvinced about the greens.  There are too many crowned greens which like too much of anything, reduces variety and variety may be what I look for most.  That said, any archie/owner wanting to recreate the original greens would rightfully meet a ton of resistance.  For better or worse, the greens are Pinehurst and Pinehurst is the greens.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

"Puffed up" is a biblical phrase.  Being an atheist and too lazy to Google, go look for yourselves.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do Donald Ross's field drawings of Pinehurst # 2 exist ?

Brian S,

Are you positive that every green is "domed" ?
Meaning that the center or near center of the green is the highest point on the green and that the rest of the putting surface falls away like an opened golf umbrella ?

[jim_lewis]

In fact, most of the greens are NOT domed. It just seems that way, because those are the ones that tend to be remembered and cussed.

Niall:  Playing to the middle of the green on many holes is strategic. Going for corner hole locations takes either big balls or small brains. Most of the greens look big, but play small. The player who can hit the small target has a good chance to win. Mr. Ross thought iron play was the essence of the game. Plenty room on the fairway, but small targets to test iron play. That's what #2 offers.

[Charlie Gallagher]

I understood McIlroy when he said that he thought aiming approaches in the middle to be a good strategy. If he is able to pull that off, he is still going to have some extremely challenging putts.
When I played the course it was early October and the weather was cool. The greens were close to perfect, very firm, as were the roll off areas. If keeping the A1, A4 alive at this time of year takes the firmness out of the greens and their surrounds, that takes away from the intended playing characteristics, and I can understand the move to Miniverde or Ultra dwarf, if it allows the superintendent to avoid softening the course to keep it alive.
Given the very recent introduction of A1, A4, I'm disapponted it has to be replaced, as it is a superb putting grass, but if it is unsuited to Pinehursts climate and playing character it would be best to make the change. I wonder why unsuitability wasn't discerned prior to that grass's selection.
The grass issue raises a criticism I have of The Ocean Course which looks firm around the greens but tends to be soft, at least when I have played it in the fall. It feels out of character for its look and location. I suspect that the culprit is the Pas Palum that is used on and around the greens.

[Gary Sato]

Some minor bitching today.  Stenson had some comments on the 5th green.

Just wait until the weekend.

[Mark_Fine]

If you talk to Pete Dye, he will tell you that the "turtle back" domed surfaces are a result of years and years of topdressing followed by a scalping of the edges by Rees Jones which further elevated the centers of the putting surfaces and helped create the dramatic falloffs.  There is as much as three feet or more of top dressing in the centers of most of the greens!  Many people think a signature of a great Donald Ross green is a turtleback and that is not true.  Again I am surprised there is so little talk about the history of change to these surfaces as they are the most dramatic and the most evolved aspect of #2. 

Jim you should play #2 again as most every green is domed!

[Kevin_Reilly]

Here is a thread on this topic from 2005:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18110.0.html