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Tim Gavrich

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Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #150 on: June 06, 2014, 02:56:48 PM »
...

I am sure there've been, broadly, not-insignificant changes to "average" PGA Tour course setups over the years. 1) Longer rough, 2) narrower fairways and 3) faster greens, right? What are the acceptable limits of those aspects of course setup, in your opinion? Which regular PGA Tour events regularly transgress them?...

Tim,

The thing you keep overlooking is the advent of tucked pins that came with the longer ball and wedge approaches.

Are you for outlawing "tucked pins"? It seems a great many of the "great pin positions" discussed on certain holes on certain courses on this site would definitely qualify as "tucked." Are you suggesting that before the golf ball started getting out-of-control long, tournament setups never included holes cut three, four or five paces from the edge of the green?

Also, the putting surfaces at TPC River Highlands are largely oval-shapes, such that there aren't many corners where it's very easy to "hide" pins. I fail to see how the advance of the golf ball and driver have made this course obsolete for the best golfers in the world. Perhaps architects charged with designing and/or modifying courses for high-level tournament play should study courses like River Highlands--and Harbour Town, and Pebble Beach, and Colonial, and others--before building courses like Redstone (or Golf Club of Houston, as it's now known) that are 7,500 yards but fail year after year to test the pros any better than do courses 500, 600, 700 yards shorter.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #151 on: June 06, 2014, 03:13:45 PM »
Think about what you are arguing for in your posts. One half of a percent (.5%) of golfers actually hit the ball more than 300 yards and it’s ruining the game and designer intent on classic courses and we need rules in place to have golf balls with restricted flights. So we can play golf like they did 40-50 years ago. When in reality, you can always outfit yourself with the old equipment and do what you want, but you want those regulations /rules mandated on everyone. My way, you can have it both ways. Your way doesn’t have that option. That is why I am right. You can still get a MacGregor Tommy Armor SS1 Driver and multi-layered ball and enjoy your round of golf. No one is forcing you to watch Bubba, Rory and Dustin bomb drivers 315 yards at a tour event. Nor are those players playing National, Chicago GC, Garden City or Pasatimpo in tournaments where (you wouldn’t even be there to see it) where the architect’s intent is not realized because they are hitting the ball too far.
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #152 on: June 06, 2014, 03:23:25 PM »
... When in reality, you can always outfit yourself with the old equipment and do what you want, but you want those regulations /rules mandated on everyone. ...

Myopia,

No you can't. There are no balls that perform the way the old balata balls did. So you suggest an impossibility. There will never again be a wound ball with a balata cover, because all the equipment to make them has been junked. However, they could make a ball that performed similarly if they chose to.
Also, the USGA mandated ball rules/regulations on everyone at least four times in the last century. They just missed the opportunity to do it the last time, because they felt they shouldn't be bankrupting ball companies.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #153 on: June 06, 2014, 03:25:20 PM »
eBay!! Go and look!
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #154 on: June 06, 2014, 03:27:14 PM »
...

I am sure there've been, broadly, not-insignificant changes to "average" PGA Tour course setups over the years. 1) Longer rough, 2) narrower fairways and 3) faster greens, right? What are the acceptable limits of those aspects of course setup, in your opinion? Which regular PGA Tour events regularly transgress them?...

Tim,

The thing you keep overlooking is the advent of tucked pins that came with the longer ball and wedge approaches.

Are you for outlawing "tucked pins"? It seems a great many of the "great pin positions" discussed on certain holes on certain courses on this site would definitely qualify as "tucked." Are you suggesting that before the golf ball started getting out-of-control long, tournament setups never included holes cut three, four or five paces from the edge of the green?

Also, the putting surfaces at TPC River Highlands are largely oval-shapes, such that there aren't many corners where it's very easy to "hide" pins. I fail to see how the advance of the golf ball and driver have made this course obsolete for the best golfers in the world. Perhaps architects charged with designing and/or modifying courses for high-level tournament play should study courses like River Highlands--and Harbour Town, and Pebble Beach, and Colonial, and others--before building courses like Redstone (or Golf Club of Houston, as it's now known) that are 7,500 yards but fail year after year to test the pros any better than do courses 500, 600, 700 yards shorter.

No, I'm just saying that the golf news media reported that tournament setups tucked more and more pins as driving distance grew with the ProV ilk. Now you have pins tucked next to hazards far more than in the past.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #155 on: June 06, 2014, 03:30:19 PM »
eBay!! Go and look!

Myopia,

Wound balls loose much of there performance as they age. Since there haven't been any manufactured in over 10 years, why don't you just suggest we go get some wooden balls like from the games origins.

The reason there might be some on ebay is that no ones buy dead balls other than for curiosities sake.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #156 on: June 06, 2014, 03:33:01 PM »
Can you please stop using the dumb argument that those who want to can go back to the old ball and old equipment? That is absurd, we are all going to seek the same competitive advantage within the rules. (Except for the hickory enthhusiasts who play together as a hobby.)


Your guess that only .5% of golfers may be correct if you consider ALL golfers, but it is FAR too low when you consider the percentage of male players in the average private club. Assuming average roll, My guess is there are 15-30 players in the average club who can routinely exceed 300 yards. And there are another 30-50 guys hitting it 280... So that is 45-80 guys who are flying it by bunkers that were built in the 1920's. 45-80 guys who are not interacting with the architecture. THAT starts to be significant in a club, especially when this group starts requesting new black tee boxes and/or reloaction of the fairway bunkers. Of course, many of these same "sticks" also clamor for increased greenspeed, thick rough and perfectly groomed bunkers.

And since we are talking about private golf clubs, most will find the financial resources to make these changes, so classic ODG course get altered in one way or another. And most of this work could have been avoided ifthe Pro V1 had been banned before it ever hit the scene.

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #157 on: June 06, 2014, 03:35:06 PM »
The way they set up for a tour event is nothing like the setup for an average member round. Also, I can assume my detractors think ANGC is not a good course anymore because they altered it for the modern game? That is what you are arguing. I am sure you would turn down an invitation on principal?
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #158 on: June 06, 2014, 03:38:54 PM »
Someone send a memo to the tree's to stop growing too. Becuase heaven forbit it alters the shotmaking when the course was designed in 1902.
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #159 on: June 06, 2014, 03:44:13 PM »
eBay!! Go and look!

Myopia,

Wound balls loose much of there performance as they age.

So wait. You don't want to play a modern ball because it performs too well, but you can't play a wound ball because it won't perform as well as it did in 1993?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #160 on: June 06, 2014, 03:48:26 PM »
Can you please stop using the dumb argument that those who want to can go back to the old ball and old equipment? That is absurd, we are all going to seek the same competitive advantage within the rules. (Except for the hickory enthhusiasts who play together as a hobby.)


Your guess that only .5% of golfers may be correct if you consider ALL golfers, but it is FAR too low when you consider the percentage of male players in the average private club. Assuming average roll, My guess is there are 15-30 players in the average club who can routinely exceed 300 yards. Wow, I have never seen this. 


And there are another 30-50 guys hitting it 280... wow, haven't seen this either.

So that is 45-80 guys who are flying it by bunkers that were built in the 1920's. 45-80 guys who are not interacting with the architecture. THAT starts to be significant in a club, especially when this group starts requesting new black tee boxes and/or reloaction of the fairway bunkers. Of course, many of these same "sticks" also clamor for increased greenspeed, thick rough and perfectly groomed bunkers.Are we talking major champhionship set up or everyday play?

And since we are talking about private golf clubs, most will find the financial resources to make these changes, so classic ODG course get altered in one way or another. And most of this work could have been avoided ifthe Pro V1 had been banned before it ever hit the scene. Your blaming ''central planning'' because clubs didn't just turn their back and say, well maybe we don't want to host another major.  Do private clubs have to get GCA approval before lengthening their courses or moving bunkers??  It would be real simple if the PGA tour said all woods have to be persimmons.  Somebody start a private tourney, make that be the rule, raise a ton of money and see how the ratings turn out!

BCowan

Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #161 on: June 06, 2014, 03:50:12 PM »
eBay!! Go and look!

Myopia,

Wound balls loose much of there performance as they age.

So wait. You don't want to play a modern ball because it performs too well, but you can't play a wound ball because it won't perform as well as it did in 1993?

+1, it doesn't make any sense.  It is just Pro V1 hate.  someone should start a Pro V1 hate thread, my god. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #162 on: June 06, 2014, 03:51:37 PM »
Someone send a memo to the tree's to stop growing too. Becuase heaven forbit it alters the shotmaking when the course was designed in 1902.

Myopia,

What architects are planting trees to define their courses? I can hear it now. "You are right. This hole sucks. But in 40 years when the trees I planted grow up it will be awesome."  ::)
Green committees plant trees, not architects.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #163 on: June 06, 2014, 03:57:14 PM »
Your twisting my statments. I guess when Tillinghast designed Winged Foot, Baltusrol and Bethpage the properties were totally devoid of tree's and the membership then added them in later.  And since those courses have been altered for the modern game too, they must suck now?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 03:58:58 PM by RussBaribault »
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #164 on: June 06, 2014, 04:00:46 PM »
Your twisting my statments. I guess when Tillinghast designed Winged Foot, Baltusrol and Bethpage the properties were totally devoid of tree's and the membership then added them in later.  And since those courses have been altered for the modern game too, they must suck now?

Yes of course. Tillie was so dumb he didn't know trees grew!  ::) Either that or he cleared corridors wide enough to suit his purposes with tree growth accounted for. Your pick. What was it?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #165 on: June 06, 2014, 04:09:41 PM »
I can't believe I even have people to argue this opposing point. It's like saying the White House was built before electricity and since it was not designed for the invention and it was not the intent, we can't have it.
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #166 on: June 06, 2014, 04:14:49 PM »
I can't believe I even have people to argue this opposing point. It's like saying the White House was built before electricity and since it was not designed for the invention and it was not the intent, we can't have it.

You know Major League Baseball sucks big time because they use those stupid wooden bats. I for one only watch college slugfests and Little League games where the chances of taking out the pitcher with a hot ball are greatly increased.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #167 on: June 06, 2014, 04:24:28 PM »
Russ,

I'm sorry but this really isn't simply a difference of opinions. Your lack of knowledge of excessive tree growth and the historic errors made by well meaning but ill informed greens committees just confirmed that for everyone here.

To answer one question you posed, most people here will tell you that Augusta is a pale imitation of what it once was. People here, though they still love the history of The Masters, tend not to get carried away with azaleas and bright green. Running brown fairways are more preferred by folk around here, which just happens to include some of the most sort after thinkers in modern architecture.

And to refer back to Faldo, had he been born 30 years later, he'd probably not be able to hit the thing far enough these days to compete at Augusta. Now, if a guy that was clearly a huge talent and long time world number one couldn't compete, do you really think everything is OK? And what about Ballesteros on the average PGA tour slog track, do you imagine his creativity would have shown through on tighter fairways and through wrist breaking rough?

Finally, have you read 'The Anatomy of a Golf Course' by Tom Doak? If not, can I suggest that you get off here post haste and straight onto Amazon to buy a copy. Read it during intervals during the US Open at the wonderfully restored Pinehurst No.2. You owe yourself that much.

PS: Ignore what he says about wavey fairways. They look awful and, for me, that's his only error!


« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 04:26:08 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #168 on: June 06, 2014, 04:28:15 PM »
Difference, Yes. You’re advocating for an omnipresent rule that affects every single golfer. MLB and MILB are professional leagues. For a comparison, I play in a wooden bat and aluminum/composite bat softball league. Both are very enjoyable and while the game is the same, it is approached in different ways . Both are fun and challenging. Your saying, no aluminum/composite bat leagues because Barry Bonds and the like are hitting monster home runs. I loved baseball way before golf was ever a thought in my head, so you should use a different sport.
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #169 on: June 06, 2014, 04:29:51 PM »
. Nor are those players playing National, Chicago GC, Garden City or Pasatimpo in tournaments where (you wouldn’t even be there to see it) where the architect’s intent is not realized because they are hitting the ball too far.

Did you ever think about why that was the case?
It's certainly not because the ball has been properly regulated.
I've got no problem with Bubba hitting it 300 +
Nicklaus did, Snead did.
It's that the rest of the tours and college players do it as well,and we generally watch long hitters hit something other than driver.
You'd see more drivers by Bubba if they rolled the ball back.

Now Paul,
I'm sure Faldo could win today at Augusta (in his prime)
Mike Weir, Zach Johnson?
Augusta was always a bombers paradies-it only became shortish at Titleist Professional, Pro V 1, and 45 inch + graphite shaft mercy in the mid 90's and beyond.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #170 on: June 06, 2014, 04:37:24 PM »
Difference, Yes. You’re advocating for an omnipresent rule that affects every single golfer. MLB and MILB are professional leagues. For a comparison, I play in a wooden bat and aluminum/composite bat softball league. Both are very enjoyable and while the game is the same, it is approached in different ways . Both are fun and challenging. Your saying, no aluminum/composite bat leagues because Barry Bonds and the like are hitting monster home runs. I loved baseball way before golf was ever a thought in my head, so you should use a different sport.


Apparently you didn't get the counterpoint to putting electricity in the White House. Electricity is an absolute must for the White House. Metal bats are not a must for baseball.

I recommend The Spirit of St. Andrews by Alister MacKenzie before Tom Doak's book.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #171 on: June 06, 2014, 04:40:23 PM »
Back to my point about trees...they grow with time as may alter how courses are played. They change, everything changes and this group is arguing to stop that. So I guess when the USGA back in the 1990's suggested courses cut down tree for better grass gowth the were wrong then and they are OK to regulate the golf ball?
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #172 on: June 06, 2014, 04:41:21 PM »
Right over your head went my baseball point.
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

RussBaribault

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #173 on: June 06, 2014, 04:42:46 PM »
So what if Gary Woodland or Bubba hit a 240 year 3 iron if they play an old classic course?
“Greatness courts failure, Romeo.”

“You may be right boss, but you know what, sometimes par is good enough to win”

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 350 yard tee shots
« Reply #174 on: June 06, 2014, 04:56:24 PM »
So what if Gary Woodland or Bubba hit a 240 year 3 iron if they play an old classic course?

What if the baseball got so hot that a Rod Carew was the leading home run hitter with line drive singlelikeswings (220+ per year) that went for homers every time, and consequently the .260 home run hitters still hit .260 and their homers went 700 feet, rendering Rod Carew twice as valuable as a home run hitter whose home run is still the same amount of runs whether it goes 340 or 700 feet?

Thus fundamentally changing the game

Wouldn't you call for a rollback?
or change the size of the field?

« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 09:23:19 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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