Holes with alternate greens

[Anthony_Nysse]

What hole at Shadow Creek? I don't remeber seeing one when I played, nor do I see one on their aerial.

#6 at Belfair West has 2 greens. #7 at Fazios Kiawah Island used to have 2 prior to renovation.

Anthony:

The 10th at Shadow Creek [I'm pretty sure it was the 10th] had two greens when it opened.  I forgot that I'd heard at some point they gave up the alternate green, which was really a pretty boring green.  The hole was very similar to the one at World Woods [like they Xeroxed the same plan ].

I will look at my Shadow Creek history book tomorrow at the office to see what it says (or doesn't say) about the alternate green.

Mr. Fazio must have built a dozen similar holes in the late 80's and early 90's.  As I mentioned, it was his solution to the problem of the small green at the 8th at Pine Valley, and that gave him the idea to build more holes in a similar vein ... though none of them approached the 8th at Pine Valley in severity or interest.

This reminds me that I forgot another whole category of two-green holes ... all the courses in Japan that have two greens on every hole!

Seems like it was a phase that Fazio went through.

If memory serves me right, that course in Japan has a green with cool season AND warm season grass ONE EVERY HOLE! Crazy!

[mike_beene]

Doesn't the 5th hole at Teeth of the Dog have an inland alt green?Perhaps salt water damage from time to time?

[Tom_Doak]

If memory serves me right, that course in Japan has a green with cool season AND warm season grass ONE EVERY HOLE! Crazy!

It is not one course in Japan.  It is almost EVERY course in Japan built before 1980, unless they have renovated to the "one-green system" in recent years.  The "two-green system" was considered traditional before then ... that is how much confidence they had in their golf course superintendents.  [And Tokyo and Kobe are some pretty tough places to grow grass.]

[Forrest Richardson]

I have designed a few (on paper and routings) but have only built one. That was at the Links at Las Palomas in Sonora, Mexico. You can play No. 18 to the Bonus Hole, No. 19. It really changes the par-5 finisher into two distinct holes.

We are embarking on one now at Palo Alto (Baylands Golf Links) in Northern California. No. 14 will have two greens: One perched out on a peninsula, surrounded by wetlands. The other, a punchbowl — They are truly Jekyll & Hyde in nature. That is a new reason to Tom's list, I suppose. My thought was to create two nearly opposite experiences, yet one hole. The perched green will play a stroke more difficult in my estimation.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I'll mention a few obscure nine-hole courses that had alternate greens for "variety" purposes for 18 hole play (two trips around the nine).

The 9th/18th hole at Hoberg's Forest Lake/Cobb Meadows/Rob Roy Golf Course (those are the three successive names of this course) in Cobb Mountain, CA had two greens.  You played the "front" green for your first or only nine, and the second green for your second time around the course.

Another was the first/tenth hole at Gleneagles GC in San Francisco.  Owner/operator Eric De Lambert built a second green that was in play alongside the original green for a while.  Eventually the original green was taken out of play, leaving the new green which was built into a hillside on the left (it was a terrible green, impossible to hit).  In recent years, the new green was taken out of play, and the original green was restored (by Thomas Bastis and the Cal Club crew).

[Kevin_Reilly]

We are embarking on one now at Palo Alto (Baylands Golf Links) in Northern California. No. 14 will have two greens: One perched out on a peninsula, surrounded by wetlands. The other, a punchbowl — They are truly Jekyll & Hyde in nature. That is a new reason to Tom's list, I suppose. My thought was to create two nearly opposite experiences, yet one hole. The perched green will play a stroke more difficult in my estimation.

What is the rationale for the perched green?  Sounds like the green at Gleneagles I mentioned above...impossibly difficult and ultimately removed from play.

[Richard Hetzel]

Also, I vaguely remember a hole on Raymond Memorial GC in Columbus, Ohio also has 2 greens on a par 3.

[Adrian_Stiff]

UK ones
8th @ Royal Troon (Postage stamp)

more local to me Bristol/Glos area
17th @ Manor House
5th @ Shirehampton Park
Several @ Saltford
Burnham's 12th used have a pair of greens (went 1978 ish) different reason...One green was a Sunday green and the old church hole was too busy, so it played as a 285 yard par 4 instead of a 485 yard par 5. Only time I ever had a putt for an Albatross.
Kingsdown 17th (I think still though not 100%)

Main reason is wear on the others.

[Sean_A]

Sherwood Forest has two greens on its 7th.  I don't know why and I often thought it should be jiggered a bit to be one huge green.  


Ciao

[Richard Hetzel]

Here is a photo of the 2nd hole at Sharon Woods GC (Diddel)  in Cincinnati, Ohio. The green on the right is a bit difficult to see but it is there. Of all the times I have played Sharon Woods, I have only seen the flag on the right side green maybe once or twice.

[Russ Arbuthnot]

Bald Mountain in Lake Orion, MI (Reid & Connellan) has a shorter alternate green on the par 3 17th (203/193) that is always pinned for the red tees (154).

[Forrest Richardson]

Kevin — I do not intend it to be impossible. The smallish green is rather flat with nothing at left or behind. The right is a high mound that forms the punchbowl of the right option (green.) Extreme care and accuracy needs to be taken. That's all.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I forgot about the one Bill Coore built at Shanqin Bay in China. The thought was it would only be a matter of time before 1 disappeared into the ocean.

[JBovay]

Is there still an alternate green in use on the 5th at Chambers Bay? If so, does anyone know if it will be used for the US Open?

[Bill_McBride]

LaCumbre CC in Santa Barbara has one of the best par 3s in the world, George Thomas' 239 yard Redan-ish 13th (3 in the original routing).  It plays over or around a big lake to the left. 

Heavens know why, but sometime after the '60's the club built an alternate green out in the lake.   It is so rankly inferior to the original hole that it's just a joke.  Flocks of water birds hang out there creating a huge mess, which actually pretty well describes the new island green as well. 

[Joe Bausch]

In the Philadelphia area I can think of two courses in addition to PV:

Merchantville CC (two-time US Open champ JMac was a pro there) has alternate greens on consecutive holes (3 and 4).

And the nearby Tavistock CC has an alternate green on the par 4 7th.  Tavistock is very under appreciated, IMHO.

[Tim Johnson]

I couldn't find my Stroke Saver for Lahinch but I seem to remember two greens for one of the par 3's on the front. Is that accurate or did the numerous pubs in Lahinch cloud my memory?

[Tom_Doak]

I couldn't find my Stroke Saver for Lahinch but I seem to remember two greens for one of the par 3's on the front. Is that accurate or did the numerous pubs in Lahinch cloud my memory?

It's actually the 11th hole.  Dr. Hawtree decided Dr. MacKenzie's green was too close to the 12th for safety's sake, so he built a new 11th hole further back in the dunes.  But at least he didn't plow under the original green, which is one of the only two on the course that is really MacKenzie's.  They still play it occasionally.

[Tim Johnson]

Thanks Tom, after posting and reviewing the website, I had a feeling it wasn't on the front.
Funny you mention for safety reasons, and keeping mind it was 04 when I played Lahinch but from looking at the 4th, doesn't the 18th fairway become an issue. Not really sure how it plays out but there has to be some close calls walking the 18th 

[Tom_Doak]

Thanks Tom, after posting and reviewing the website, I had a feeling it wasn't on the front.
Funny you mention for safety reasons, and keeping mind it was 04 when I played Lahinch but from looking at the 4th, doesn't the 18th fairway become an issue. Not really sure how it plays out but there has to be some close calls walking the 18th 

Absolutely.  I don't know if Dr. Hawtree made any suggestions for the crossover.  But, he has often undertaken "safety audits" and advised clubs of safety issues, which they are then pretty much obliged to fix since an expert identified them and they will be liable for not doing so.

[Tim Johnson]

That reminds me of a story I heard a couple of years back about Summit GC just north of Toronto. They had a hole that was next to a road, due to population growth the road was expanded which lead to more traffic, they consulted a lawyer who informed them that they could be liable if a golf ball caused an accident, didnt take the directors too long to close the hole for the same reasons you mentioned, they had prior knowledge. They were lucky, they had 19 holes so it was an easy choice.

[JBovay]

Another RTJII course that once had alternate greens: according to the latest NCGA magazine, for a while at Poppy Hills, they had two greens on the second hole, a par-3. I am not exactly sure why, but it seems like they may have been trying to reduce maintenance costs by not mowing the bank between two tiers. This would be a fairly unique reason, I think!

[Pete_Pittock]

I can think of four or five in the Pacific Northwest. As mentioned before the 5th at Chambers Bay. Virtual earth still shows a green there. Maybe someone from the King's Putter will chime in.

Desert Canyon, somewhere NNE of Wenatchee, WA has two greens on the 11th hole. One has a forced carry, the other does not.

Broadmoor GC in Portland, OR has two greens on the 1st (or 10th) hole on the west boundary, tee by the clubhouse. Another forced carry situation.

Tumwater Valley GC under the old Olympia brewery, has two greens on a par 3 hole. I think it was sold on pace of play reasons.

Pronghorn (Fazio) in Bend, OR is the newest addition to the list. Dpn't know the reason

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have seen alternate greens employed for a variety of different reasons:

1.  So that one or both of the greens could be quite small without the traffic wearing it down
     (Pelican Hill, Shadow Creek, several other Tom Fazio courses, 10 at Riviera, all stemming from the 8th at Pine Valley)

2.  To speed up play - using two parallel par-3 holes for alternate groups
     (Several RTJ public courses)

3.  To prevent women from having to make a forced carry
     (Blackwolf Run)

4.  As a compromise solution in restoration after the original green site had been abandoned
     (#2 LACC)

5.  Because the architect couldn't choose between two good options
     (9th Pine Valley and 9th Pacific Dunes)

Tom, you certainly know the reasons at Pacific Dunes, but, I don't consider the 9th at PD providing alternate greens as much as I do alternate holes and alternate routing.

I think the concept employed at PD was brilliant, play left and your play a completely different second half of the hole and a different hole that follows.
Very clever.

As to # 9 at PV, two seperate architects were involved with the right side green coming years after the left side green.

PV also has dual greens on # 8, but, that was mostly for maintenance reasons as the wear and tear on the narrow original was becoming a problem.

[EDIT - I forgot #6]

6.  Similar to #1, in Japan, many older courses built two greens for EVERY hole in order to deal with turf problems common to Japan.  Usually one green is bentgrass and one is korai, for winter and summer play ... but sometimes they are both the same grass, and they just use the "sub green" as a backup in case they have turf troubles maintaining the main green, due to the hot and humid conditions.


At Pacific Dunes the upper green came first, but after we did the clearing I thought a lot about the lower option ... there was a good site with a lot of natural contour, and I liked how it would cause players to want to do different things with their tee ball.  So, I suggested to Mike that we use it as an alternate and combine that with alternate 10th tees, and he agreed.  I don't think he would have let us build just the lower green because it had so much contour, but I convinced him it was ok if it would only be used part-time.

It's a brilliant concept that has a great practical application.

[Michael Whitaker]

#6 at Mike Strantz' True Blue has two greens. Not sure why. I think probably Doak's reason #5.