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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 3rd Hole Posted
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2014, 05:55:46 PM »
Paul, I totally agree. To see fairway around that bunker, even high up left, would be pretty cool.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
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~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 3rd Hole Posted
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2014, 06:05:47 PM »
Paul, I totally agree. To see fairway around that bunker, even high up left, would be pretty cool.

I agree too.  Not sure when the rough appeared, but that bunker appears to once have been partially surrounded by fairway based on the 1938 aerial.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 07:01:59 PM by Brian Hoover »

Tom Allen

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 3rd Hole Posted
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2014, 10:58:03 AM »
Great photos so far.  I can attest that being above the hole on #1 is dead.  I putted right off the front the green.  I was not quite prepared for that.  I was prepared the other two times I did it later in the round, but it still happened. :)

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 3rd Hole Posted
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2014, 11:01:27 AM »
Great photos so far.  I can attest that being above the hole on #1 is dead.  I putted right off the front the green.  I was not quite prepared for that.  I was prepared the other two times I did it later in the round, but it still happened. :)


When the pin on #1 is cut in the front, putting off the green is a very real possibility if you find yourself above the hole.  There are several other greens on the course where putting off the green is possible, or even likely, depending on hole location (#s 4, 7, 10, 12, 13 and 18).   

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2014, 09:06:13 PM »
Hole #4 – 433 yards, par 4

The fourth hole is probably the toughest hole on the course.  Although the scorecard says par 4, the fourth really plays like a par 4.5 or even a par 5 for most golfers.  The first task is to hit the fairway off the tee and try to leave a shot of 175 or less into a devilishly tough green complex.  If the fairway is playing firm, it’s possible to reach the creek that crosses the fairway about 125 yards from the green, so the play from the tee may be less than driver, which then means that the second shot will be even longer into a green that is not going to be receptive to a long iron or even a fairway metal.  If the golfer’s tee shot misses the fairway, the chance of reaching the green is almost none due to the creek and the severity of the approach to the green and the green itself.

The approach shot into the green is uphill to a green that sits at least 20 feet above the fairway.  The green features a severe false front that will repel any approach shot that fails to clear the slope.  If the ball catches the false front, the golfer will be faced with a chip of 15-20 yards back up the hill.

The green was rebuilt in 2011 to allow for additional pin locations.  Apparently the original green only offered the left side for usable pin locations as the right side was severely sloped and balls could not stay on the green.  The current green is still severe, but a bowl of sorts was built to allow shots to hold the green.  The ideal play is to aim for the back edge of the green and hope that the slope will bring the ball back to the center of the green.  If the pin is cut close to the false front, poorly hit putts frequently will roll off the green, in which case the golfer faces that tough uphill chip again.  If the ball goes over the green, then a chip off the sloped hollow that holds the green is a good effort.  If one does fail to reach the green, the ideal miss is hole high either left, if the pin is right, or right, if the pin is left.  That miss gives the golfer room to chip across the length of the green and use the slope to his advantage.

Walking away with a par is basically stealing a shot.  

View from the tee




View from the landing area






Short of the green






Views of the green











« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 09:24:45 PM by Brian Hoover »

BCowan

Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2014, 09:30:56 PM »
Brian,

    Course looks great.  One of the best openers I have seen through a photo tour.   When looking at 38' Aerial there was prob 80% less trees.  Any plan to timber ho at Springfield? 

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2014, 09:36:24 PM »
The emerald ash borer has taken a toll on the course's collection of ash trees. The superintendent has told me that he has been able to remove a couple hundred trees since he arrived. When the remnants of Hurricane Ike came through a couple years back, a lo of trees came down too.

Obviously there's room for more tree removal, but I suspect the members will be reluctant to clear cut the course. From what I've heard, it's better than it was a couple years ago, and the important thing is that the areas around the greens generally have been cleared to allow for improved light and air flow. I'd be in favor of removing more trees, but it's fairly open--more so than the photos would suggest.

I don't think we'll see a return to 1938 anytime soon, unfortunately.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 09:40:35 PM by Brian Hoover »

Criss Titschinger

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2014, 12:57:35 PM »
The course looks fantastic!

I wouldn't have guessed there was that much elevation change, based on my few plays of Windy Knoll, the public neighbor next door. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, because WK has a couple of its own.

Keep the pics coming!

JNagle

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2014, 09:00:11 AM »
Springfield really is a hidden gem.  From the first tour we took of the course in late 1999 until our last visit I am always amazed at finding some new nuance or feature we just did not see before.  The entire set of 18 greens can be put up against many other great Ross sites.  The routing takes full advantage of the property.  This is also why greens like 4, 8 & 18 had to be rebuilt.  Simply too much slope from back to front.  Many of the greens are set into upslopes so many have a "semi-punchbowl" appearance about them.  1, 4, 8 (slightly with it built-up rear horizon), 13, 15 & 18 all have greens built into a rear slope.  The tree lines have really negated the various angles by which a golfer could play the holes and work with the internal contours of the greens.  The parallel holes such as 12, 14, 15 and 17 have mound complexes that are obsolete today because they are lost among the trees.  Speaking of the mounds.  The complexes of three and four mounds at Springfield are some of the best I have witnessed on any Ross course.  We use photos of the mounds as guides when working on other renovation/restoration projects.  This place is so pure that many of the fairway bunkers have bot been touched in so long that the original earthworks have been literally edged away.

Since our involvement with the club started in 1999, we have assisted with expanding all of the greens during a re-grassing program, expanding fairways, where possible (limited either by trees or irrigation), rebuilding greenside bunkers, rebuilding the 4th, 8th and 18th greens and suggestions regarding the removal of many, many trees.  The Club did miss the mark in the beginning when they decided to regrass without the aid of a plan.  By that we mean they needed to cut down trees first then plan the regrassing.  They just weren't willing to do so at the time.  The club has taken a slow approach to the implementation of their plan and it has worked for them.

The rebuilding of the three greens was really a site job only.  There were no topo plans to work from, we just did a couple of plan sketches for guides and worked in the field setting grades and slopes.  The limit of disturbance was not very far from the existing green edge and therefore limited the ability to lower the backs of greens and raise the fronts in an attempt to provide more cupping area.  Hence the comment above the false front on #4.  Have to find some place to get back to existing grade.  Our SOP is to provide slopes upward of 3.7% in cuppable areas.  Some may find this excessive but when working with classic courses and push-up greens you will be surprised to see what is an acceptable slope.  Each of the three greens had subtle contours that had to be retained with the rebuilding.  4 and 18 were basic "semi-punchbowl" greens with a lot of slope from back to front.  Each was leveled by steepening the rear and front slopes then softening the middles.  The 8th hole had much greater character about it and required a great deal more hand work and raking to get it right.

The club is land locked and will not be able to lengthen the course which is not necessarily a bad thing.  Would love to see continued tree removal and the rebuilding of the fairway bunkers.  One nice thing to do on the flatter holes would be to restore Ross' intent by relocating some bunkers further from the tees back into play as they once were.
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2014, 09:59:09 AM »

The club is land locked and will not be able to lengthen the course which is not necessarily a bad thing.  Would love to see continued tree removal and the rebuilding of the fairway bunkers.  One nice thing to do on the flatter holes would be to restore Ross' intent by relocating some bunkers further from the tees back into play as they once were.

Thanks for the comments, Jim.  I was not a member at the time of the renovation work, so it's fascinating to learn more about the long-range plan and the work that has been done. 

I completely agree with yiou that lengthening the course is not a possibility, but I think the greens and the terrain is enough of a challenge to render the need for more length moot.  I also agree that continued tree removal would be a good thing (and I think the superintendent generally agrees, although I don't want to speak for him).  I'd also like to see the fairway bunkers rebuilt and, as you say, relovated to bring some of them into play as Ross intended.

When the plan was put together, did you find out anything about the extent of Ross' involvement in designing the current layout?  Was he on-site at all?  Just curious.  I haven't been able to find anything, but that's partly from being a new member and not wanting to seem like a total nerd...at least not yet.

JNagle

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2014, 10:32:59 AM »
Brian - The Ross Archives and Brad Klein's book indicate that Ross was on-site.  This is not to say that Ross' construction supervisors were not capable of building great greens, but we have seen a correlation between Ross being on site and a higher quality set of greens. 
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2014, 10:37:56 AM »
Brian - The Ross Archives and Brad Klein's book indicate that Ross was on-site.  This is not to say that Ross' construction supervisors were not capable of building great greens, but we have seen a correlation between Ross being on site and a higher quality set of greens. 

I suppose I ought to actually read the copy of Brad Klein's book that sits on my bookshelf at home!

Matthew Lloyd

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2014, 03:18:33 PM »
I'll simply add that this course looks awesome and I'm going to try to make this a priority in the next year or so. Old school in the best sense. Agree with everyone else commenting on how great of an opening hole that is.

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2014, 03:20:40 PM »
If there's interest, I could check about putting together a GCA get together at Springfield.

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 5th Hole Posted
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2014, 09:05:38 AM »
Hole #5 – 506 yards, par 5

The fifth is another fairly easy par 5, and a chance to pick up a shot that likely was lost on the fourth.  The hole again plays fairly straight away to a fairway that is lined by trees (that could stand to be thinned some more) and two fairway bunkers that generally don’t come into play except for the longer hitters.  If the golfer finds the fairway, then the choice is to either go for the green or lay up short for a 100 yard pitch.  Missing the fairway means navigating the trees and playing a low shot to lay up short. 

The most interesting feature on the fifth is found about 15 yards short of the green.  Ross placed a mound that crosses the length of the approach to the green to prevent players from being able to simply run a fairway wood or long iron into the green.  The mound almost resembles an overturn canoe or inverted ditch.  The grass on the mound is cut at intermediate rough length, which means that it’s not as if the ball will be caught up in the mound giving the golfer an impossible shot.  But, if the ball does get stuck on the mound, it means a bit of an awkward pitch or chip into the green. 

The green itself is divided into a fairly sloped front section and then the left and right back corners.  The front section is the easier and the smart play most of the time because long or missing on the flag side is definitely not an easy up and down.  Birdie is a definite possibility here, but missing the green brings bogey into play.

From the tee


Landing area


Views of the green

















BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 6th Hole Posted
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2014, 09:06:48 AM »
Hole #6 – 412 yards, par 4

The sixth is another straightaway hole, but like others at Springfield, finding the fairway is the key to being able to play into the green.  The hole is rather uneventful until you get to the green.  The green is set on a sort of plateau and features four distinct corners.  It’s also one of the larger greens on the course, which means that placement is important because otherwise a three putt is a distinct possibility.  The green features lots of subtle internal movement, yet it lacks the bold contours or slopes found on many of the other greens.

The green is fronted by a small stream that definitely comes into play if you miss the fairway or if the pin is cut close to the front of the green.  The front of the green complex slopes severely down to the stream.  If the slope was maintained at fairway height, any ball that comes up short or with too much spin would find the water.  But the grass is cut at intermediate rough height, so it’s possible that a shot you think is destined for the water is still safe and playable (albeit up a steep slope).  Long over the green or missing on the pin side is definitely not the play because you face an uphill chip to a green that slopes away from you.

Tee shot


Landing area


Views of the green    













« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 09:08:20 AM by Brian Hoover »

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 7th Hole Posted
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2014, 09:33:43 AM »
Hole #7 – 357 yards, par 4

The seventh is a tricky hole in that it looks to be rather easy, but danger lurks in the form of OB right and gunch and a severe sidehill left off the tree.  The best play is a long iron or hybrid off the tee to the center of the very narrow fairway.  Finding the fairway leaves an uphill shot to what may be the most severe green on the course (although it doesn’t seem to be severe based on appearance).  Missing the fairway means that you may be able to play to the green or you may have to simply play short and hope to get up and down (the worst angle is from the left because of the severity of the sidehill lie).

The green, as mentioned, is possibly the toughest on the course.  (In some ways, the green reminds me of #15 green at Canton Brookside, although probably not as severe in terms of slope.)  Being short of the pin is an absolute must as a downhill putt has a very real chance of rolling off the green and down the hill leaving a chip back up the green of 15-20 yards.  The best miss is short and right of the green, but don’t miss on the flag side of the green.  Missing the green long is absolutely dead and it’s 50/50 whether you can keep your chip on the green (there is also OB over the green, so just don’t go there).  Keep the ball on the front of the green, try to two put and walk to the eighth tee with a par.

From the tee


Landing area






Views of the green
















BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 8th Hole Posted
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2014, 04:43:16 PM »
Hole #8 – 331 yards, par 4

The eighth is probably the coolest hole at Springfield and, at least in my mind, the hole that exhibits the most Ross characteristics—cross bunkering, severe green contouring, quirk and fun.  At just 331 yards, it’s certainly not a long hole, but that doesn’t mean it’s an easy hole by any stretch of the imagination.  The first thing that you notice standing on the tee are the hazards—OB hard on the right, a deep bunker left and the large cross bunker.  The tee shot is downhill, but the second shot plays steeply uphill, so the golfer must decide whether to play an iron to the flat part of the fairway and face a longer second shot up the hill, take a hybrid and hit into the upslope and leave a 9-iron or wedge into the green from an uphill lie, or, for the longer hitters, bust driver and try to clear the cross bunker.  I normally hit hybrid because the cross bunker is very deep and the prospect of playing from there to the green is not the type of shot I want to have.

The green is set atop the highest point on the property.  It is a skyline green from the vantage point of the golfer.  The green is divided into four distinct quadrants, the easiest being front left and front right, and back left and back right the most difficult.  This was another one of the greens that was completely rebuilt in 2011 to add more usable pin locations.  The worst misses are left if the pin is cut on the left side and long, which is absolutely dead because the green drops off sharply and would leave the golfer with an almost impossible shot back up the steep hill.  The front of the green is not so much a false front, but an approach shot with spin easily could catch the slope and run back down the hill leaving a semi-blind chip back onto the green.

The most interesting feature, in my opinion, is that the green is connected to the ninth tee, which sits perched just above and to the immediate right of the green.  During the rebuild of the green, the slope next to the green and the ninth tee was shaved to fairway height, so it is possible now to use the ninth tee as the target for one’s second shot if the pin is cut on the right of the green and use the natural slope to try to get the ball close to the pin.  A miss to the right will end up on the ninth tee, so the smart play is to putt onto the green using the slope.  If one misses the green left, that same slope can be as a backboard to keep the ball on the green.

This hole has enough quirky features that birdie (or even eagle, with the slopes) is a possibility, but so is double if you find the wrong spot off the tee or around the green.

From the tee


Landing area




Views of the green























« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 04:46:41 PM by Brian Hoover »

BCowan

Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 8th Hole Posted
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2014, 05:27:05 PM »
8 looks great!

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 8th Hole Posted
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2014, 08:16:39 PM »
8 looks great!

It's a fun hole...unless you fly the green and then are faced with a 75 yard shot straight back up the hill to a firm green that slopes away from you. The key is to play smart off the tee and play at least a half club more for your second shot and then aim for the slope on the right that's shared with the ninth green. That's the only truly safe play.

JNagle

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 8th Hole Posted
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2014, 08:43:49 AM »
The combining of the 8th green and 9th tees was very much a field decision and one that enables the Club to maximize the teeing space on #9 (shortish down hill par 3).  Year after year the 9th tee takes a beating due to size and amount of play.  The three greens at SCC had a great deal of hand-work involved with them but none more than the 8th.  The internal contours of #8 were more interesting and apparent than the general back to front slopes of 4 and 18.  We literally were scraping an inch here or an inch there to be as authentic as possible.  No drawings (other than a simple +/- sketch to add a little here and cut a little there), no survey, just field work.  Loved every second of it.

Massaging the 8th


Combining the 9th tee and 8th green



It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Michael Marzec

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 8th Hole Posted
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2014, 09:11:50 AM »
Excellent photos and commentary, Brian. The greens are remarkable. They remind me of a couple of other Ohio gems: Canton Brookside and Canterbury GC. Keep up the great work!
"Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite. And furthermore, always carry a small snake." - W.C. Fields

Phil McDade

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 8th Hole Posted
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2014, 12:23:57 PM »
Brian:

What are you thoughts on the mound that fronts the par 5 5th being treated/mown as rough? At first glance, I'd prefer it at fairway height. But maybe its strategic interest -- as a mound fronting a green that many are likely to go at with their 2nd shot -- suggests it should serve as something of a deterrent and thus kept at rough heights. Any sense of what Ross intended, given his fondness of mounding at other courses? A neat feature, but I'm not quite sure I like how it's maintained here. But, I'm open to being convinced otherwise. :D

BHoover

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 8th Hole Posted
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2014, 12:28:35 PM »
Brian:

What are you thoughts on the mound that fronts the par 5 5th being treated/mown as rough? At first glance, I'd prefer it at fairway height. But maybe its strategic interest -- as a mound fronting a green that many are likely to go at with their 2nd shot -- suggests it should serve as something of a deterrent and thus kept at rough heights. Any sense of what Ross intended, given his fondness of mounding at other courses? A neat feature, but I'm not quite sure I like how it's maintained here. But, I'm open to being convinced otherwise. :D

I would also prefer to see it cut to fairway height as it would bring more options into play (bump and run, putting, chip and run).  At the current intermediate height, however, it's still better than being covered in thick rough.  But the options that would be offered by keeping it at fairway height are still somewhat limited.  I'm not sure whether Ross intended to keep it fairway or intermediate height, so I can't answer that question.  My guess (and it's strictly a guess) is that he probably intended to keep it cut at fairway height.

Michael Marzec

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Re: Springfield CC (Ohio - Ross) -- A Photo Tour - 4th Hole Posted
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2014, 01:47:26 PM »
If there's interest, I could check about putting together a GCA get together at Springfield.

I'll get the interest started. Very interested!
"Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite. And furthermore, always carry a small snake." - W.C. Fields

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