Unbalanced nines

[Jason Topp]

Didn't the Palms have a very large yardage difference between the front and the back?  I seem to recall it being something like 3100-3800. 

[Dave McCollum]

I wasn’t involved much on our design, routing, or re-routing.  It evolved before my time.  From a F&B (mostly beverage) point of view it works well:  house, 6 holes, house, 3 holes, house, 9 holes, house.   We’re public with season pass holders who call themselves members.  Unfortunately, not that busy, so the members often use the 6, 3, 9 hole loops as quick, after-work options or as alternative starting points, depending on traffic.  Personally, I like to play fast and just play the open holes where I won’t be held up or bother the paying customers.  I like the flexibility of our layout, although when sneaking in an emergency nine we often have to use carts and skip around.  It’s a compact, short layout, somewhere around 120 acres of turf (not counting the native), but can be stretched to 7K yards, if needed (rare).  I suppose there are safety issues on our tight layout, but even though it is possible for a golfer to hit a group on another hole, it never happens.  The bordering access road (on the hook side, RH golfers) has had a few incidents, one serious, but that history covers 40 years.  As to balance, we’re a conventional 36-36, yet the starting points and loops work well for us and our golfers. 

[Paul Gray]

20yr old Pyrford west of London has 8 very easy holes to start, then you hit a 600+yd double dogleg with water everywhere, and a much more difficult back nine. It doesn't work well. The tempo of the round fell brutally from that 9th hole and the course would have much benefited from a balanced mix of hard and easy holes.
Makes me think of this: two guys walk out of the race-course with their original cash in hand: one is fuming, the other one is grinning. That's because the first guy found the winning horse of the first race and lost all his gains on the others, while the second one recouped all his afternoon losses on the last race.
At Pyrford, there is a risk to feel like the former.

The only real problem with that course is the holes numbered 1 to 18. 

[Sean_A]

I think there is a good market for 9 holes of golf and possibly 'all you can eat with 150 minutes of sunlight left'. 6 holes I would say not much of a market...it's all a bit too much effort to get there just for 6, unless you live close in which case you would probably be a member.
As to designing a 6, 9, 12 and 18 routing.....you get into the aspect of thinking too much about the commercial aspects v flow of the course. At the Players Club we have the 1st, 5th, 10th and 14th so can do a 4 tee start and that's popular with big corporate days and club comps, everyone (128 players) can start and finish within 72 minutes. The design of this was an accident though. Centrally placed clubhouse's make these things more possible.

I agree with all of this.  It is rare enough to come up with a routing that has two even loops of nine holes and feel like that's really the best routing.  Coming up with three even loops of six holes is almost guaranteed not to be the best routing, unless the ground is just featureless.

I wasn't suggesting designing three starting points near the house, just two.  Except instead of 9 hole loops, I wondered if 6 and 12 (or 5 and 13) might work better commercially and of course 18 is an option - so three price points rather than two.  I always thought 9 holes was either too much or too little, probably because I often feel 18 is too many holes and would prefer 14 or 15 holes. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think there is a good market for 9 holes of golf and possibly 'all you can eat with 150 minutes of sunlight left'. 6 holes I would say not much of a market...it's all a bit too much effort to get there just for 6, unless you live close in which case you would probably be a member.
As to designing a 6, 9, 12 and 18 routing.....you get into the aspect of thinking too much about the commercial aspects v flow of the course. At the Players Club we have the 1st, 5th, 10th and 14th so can do a 4 tee start and that's popular with big corporate days and club comps, everyone (128 players) can start and finish within 72 minutes. The design of this was an accident though. Centrally placed clubhouse's make these things more possible.

I agree with all of this.  It is rare enough to come up with a routing that has two even loops of nine holes and feel like that's really the best routing.  Coming up with three even loops of six holes is almost guaranteed not to be the best routing, unless the ground is just featureless.

I wasn't suggesting designing three starting points near the house, just two.  Except instead of 9 hole loops, I wondered if 6 and 12 (or 5 and 13) might work better commercially and of course 18 is an option - so three price points rather than two.  I always thought 9 holes was either too much or too little, probably because I often feel 18 is too many holes and would prefer 14 or 15 holes. 

Ciao

On the composite back nine / new nine course at Carne, we have exactly this with 12 and 18 being the holes that return to the clubhouse. It was primarily coincidence but I figured it was a nice configuration too, with 6, 12 and18 hole options plus a 9 and 27 hole option.

[Tom ORourke]

Riverton is an old Donald Ross course in southern New Jersey that is 37 - 34 = 71. Part of that was the fact that the course used to start on what is now #13 but the need to build a clubhouse in a non-dry town led to starting on the other end of the course. No one seems to mind except for the odd fact that my parents could never seem to understand why they always seemed to score better on the back nine though it was more difficult. The layout does work in that you can play 1 - 7 and cut over to 15 - 18 to finish an early evening round.

[Martin Toal]

Wentworth West, where Rory won recently, is 35-37. In the old set up, some would say it was really 34.5-36, with the 4th, 12th and 18th all really par 4 and a half for the big boys.

[Sean_A]

I think there is a good market for 9 holes of golf and possibly 'all you can eat with 150 minutes of sunlight left'. 6 holes I would say not much of a market...it's all a bit too much effort to get there just for 6, unless you live close in which case you would probably be a member.
As to designing a 6, 9, 12 and 18 routing.....you get into the aspect of thinking too much about the commercial aspects v flow of the course. At the Players Club we have the 1st, 5th, 10th and 14th so can do a 4 tee start and that's popular with big corporate days and club comps, everyone (128 players) can start and finish within 72 minutes. The design of this was an accident though. Centrally placed clubhouse's make these things more possible.

I agree with all of this.  It is rare enough to come up with a routing that has two even loops of nine holes and feel like that's really the best routing.  Coming up with three even loops of six holes is almost guaranteed not to be the best routing, unless the ground is just featureless.

I wasn't suggesting designing three starting points near the house, just two.  Except instead of 9 hole loops, I wondered if 6 and 12 (or 5 and 13) might work better commercially and of course 18 is an option - so three price points rather than two.  I always thought 9 holes was either too much or too little, probably because I often feel 18 is too many holes and would prefer 14 or 15 holes. 

Ciao

On the composite back nine / new nine course at Carne, we have exactly this with 12 and 18 being the holes that return to the clubhouse. It was primarily coincidence but I figured it was a nice configuration too, with 6, 12 and18 hole options plus a 9 and 27 hole option.

Ally

Is Carne going to market five price points?

Sean

[Ally Mcintosh]

Very much doubt it, Sean. Anyone who lives local and plays is a member.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Do unbalanced nines get designed by unbalanced architects?

[Ian Andrew]

I really like Delamere Forest a lot because the two nines have completely different personalities
The front is long and requires you to strap on your big boy pants and come to play.
The back is short, quirky and a major cerebral challenge.

I found the experience very compelling and one I would like as a member.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Bel Air might be called "double unbalanced."  It's a par 36/34, with 3 par threes on the back and one par five.  Yet the back nine is much, much tougher - I'd say 4 strokes to par and two strokes gross.  It makes for a very interesting view of one's round as it progresses.