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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2014, 01:47:18 PM »
Jason,

I haven't played Wild Horse.  Many whose opinions I trust think it is very good, but put it a notch or two below Rustic, just as you put Rustic a bit below Wild Horse.  Would it be reasonable for them to insist that you are "dramatically overrating" Wild Horse because you think it a bit better than Rustic?

Regarding environmental areas, I agree with you that they are the functional equivalent to water hazards.  When Rustic first opened there weren't nearly as many, but after the big fire they had trouble with traffic (especially carts) entering the burn areas to find balls, so they greatly expanded the areas marked as protected. At the time I thought it was supposed to be temporary, but unfortunately it seems to have stuck.  I don't really like excessive water or water equivalents on a golf course, so ideally I'd prefer fewer restricted areas at Rustic. Practically, though, except on Nos. 6 and Nos. 14 from the back tees, the areas aren't really that big an issue.

As for your comparison with Doral, it strikes me as completely ridiculous.  You are dramatically overstating the lost ball potential at Rustic, especially if your 15 handicapper is playing the recommended white tees (6050 yards.)  Most the fairways are at 60+ yards wide with the corridors  80+ yards wide. There are a restricted areas somewhat near a few greens but, unlike at Doral, there are no places where a ball can trickle off of a green and into a the hazard, and there are few instances where a golfer must flirt with the hazard to safely reach the green.  As at most courses, there are definitely a places where one can lose a ball, but even in howling winds lost balls are rarely a major issue.

As for the "first time player" who doesn't know where he is going or which native areas to avoid, I'm not sure that ought to be the standard. Regardless, I'd strongly recommend that the he try to avoid all of the native areas.   Given the 60-80 yards of width, that doesn't seem to be too daunting a task.  

In short, the Doral comparison seems so out of line with reality that I understand why another poster questioned whether you were familiar with the course.   There are few courses in the region where lost balls are less of an issue, especially when the wind blows.  
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 02:00:54 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Matthew Lloyd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2014, 01:57:16 PM »
I can appreciate any and all NBA analogies as I love the league, but not sure Paul George is the right player. Matt Ryan is a great comparison.  I feel like George is better relative to his peers than Ryan is, and is still much further away from his ceiling than Ryan.  I'm not sure who the NBA's version of Matt Ryan is -- Gordon Hayward perhaps to reference another Hoosier state product? That's probably being a little hard on Ryan as Hayward is at best a good complimentary piece. Kevin Love perhaps? George is only 24 and will keep getting better. I don't see a Kobe trajectory for him, but not a T-Mac or Vince Carter trajectory either.

Ok, I've veered off topic. I still have yet to play a Gil Hanse course so I'll reserve judgment until then. But I've enjoyed this thread immensely. Not often that the NBA and golf course designed are compared.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2014, 02:10:09 PM »
I can appreciate any and all NBA analogies as I love the league, but not sure Paul George is the right player. Matt Ryan is a great comparison.  I feel like George is better relative to his peers than Ryan is, and is still much further away from his ceiling than Ryan.  I'm not sure who the NBA's version of Matt Ryan is -- Gordon Hayward perhaps to reference another Hoosier state product? That's probably being a little hard on Ryan as Hayward is at best a good complimentary piece. Kevin Love perhaps? George is only 24 and will keep getting better. I don't see a Kobe trajectory for him, but not a T-Mac or Vince Carter trajectory either.

Ok, I've veered off topic. I still have yet to play a Gil Hanse course so I'll reserve judgment until then. But I've enjoyed this thread immensely. Not often that the NBA and golf course designed are compared.

At the risk of being the Stephen A. Smith to Jason's Cowherd, I'd say closer to Kaepernick. He hasn't reached that Brady/Manning/Rodgers level, and has created some Conference Championship level courses (Rustic, Castle Stuart), but hasn't reached or won the Super Bowl yet (Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes). This is all, of course, according to my sources.  ;D

Quote
Rustic has wonderful subtlety, but at times it goes too far and borders on just being boring. I’m picking nits a bit here, but that’s the only real way to separate courses of such quality.

Not to pile on to David's post, but this also stood out. I can't convince someone that what they find boring is not boring, but for me Rustic is incredibly engaging. I'll leave it to Jason to identify how he feels about different holes, etc... as this is his thread, but I'd definitely like to hear him expand upon this opinion.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2014, 04:00:46 PM »
That is just awesome managing to bring up the name Jim Farmer! What a blast from the past when I used to watch SEC basketball. Anyway, I spoke to Phyllis and she says despite the fact he was the enemy Wesley Person should be compared to Bill Diddle. Despite multiple design credits, nobody talks about Diddle-Ever. Also despite scoring 11PPG in the NBA, Brantley, Al has a sign saying "Welcome To Brantley, Home of the Rifleman, Chuck Person." Chuck scored 14PPG in the NBA FTR.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2014, 09:38:32 PM »
Gil had a great day today! Go Pacers!

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2014, 10:17:49 PM »
Gil can make any golf course better and Paul George can make any NBA team better. 

As leading men the jury is still out.  I agree that Gil has a bright future.  He has a new unannounced California project that could be quite good.  The Rio Olympic project could be good as well.

From here the analogy ends.  Paul George could be the greatest player but its a team game.  He could be like Lebron in Cleveland.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2014, 07:07:27 AM »
Paul George at Indiana is Scotty Pippen playing without Michael Jordan. 

Which I think makes William Langford the Paul George of golf architecture. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2014, 08:53:09 AM »
Who's the best example of an underachiever architect or perhaps one with delusions of greatness?  That would be the best match for this overrated, largely unwatchable team that almost lost its first playoff series despite being the top seed. As a longtime Bulls fan, I love seeing Pacers optimism which will always be replaced by gloom. Think Game 7 in the series against the Bulls in Chicago. Reggie Miller's wife sat close to me. By the end of the game, she knew why I was screaming "Heineken Time". It sure wasn't "Miller Time".
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2014, 12:11:10 PM »
Who's the best example of an underachiever architect or perhaps one with delusions of greatness? 

That should be a separate thread, don't you think?  There have been numerous threads on one hit wonders but I'm not sure anyone has touched on underachievers. 

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2014, 05:12:14 PM »
Who's the best example of an underachiever architect or perhaps one with delusions of greatness?  That would be the best match for this overrated, largely unwatchable team that almost lost its first playoff series despite being the top seed. As a longtime Bulls fan, I love seeing Pacers optimism which will always be replaced by gloom. Think Game 7 in the series against the Bulls in Chicago. Reggie Miller's wife sat close to me. By the end of the game, she knew why I was screaming "Heineken Time". It sure wasn't "Miller Time".

Those Pacers were so much tougher mentally than these guys. It's hard to blame PG though. He's the best player they have had since Reggie.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2014, 07:11:05 PM »
From here the analogy ends.  Paul George could be the greatest player but its a team game.  He could be like Lebron in Cleveland.

I would imagine from the limited time I've spent with Gil that he would be the first to emphasize that designing and creating great golf is also a team endeavor.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jason Walker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2014, 09:58:49 PM »
What's next?  A 90210 retrospective?

Bill Simmons kinda hit his peak around 2006.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2014, 10:06:23 PM »
What's next?  A 90210 retrospective?

Bill Simmons kinda hit his peak around 2006.

I can see it now: "The Peachtree Peach Pit, a photo tour"

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2014, 11:48:50 AM »
Good old Gil looked great when Doak picked up his fifth foul in the 3rd quarter. I fear that Doak's immense talent will shine through tonight though.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2014, 04:31:18 PM »
Good old Gil looked great when Doak picked up his fifth foul in the 3rd quarter. I fear that Doak's immense talent will shine through tonight though.

FYI, I have played basketball with Gil Hanse ... many years ago when we were working on Stonewall.  I am giving up five inches and five years to the guy; I would not want to take him on one-on-one at basketball.

But, if you're talking golf course design, then the tables are turned.  My five years of age are a plus rather than a minus, and I've got a great bunch of shooters on my squad to pass the ball to.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2014, 12:49:27 AM »
Good old Gil looked great when Doak picked up his fifth foul in the 3rd quarter. I fear that Doak's immense talent will shine through tonight though.

FYI, I have played basketball with Gil Hanse ... many years ago when we were working on Stonewall.  I am giving up five inches and five years to the guy; I would not want to take him on one-on-one at basketball.

But, if you're talking golf course design, then the tables are turned.  My five years of age are a plus rather than a minus, and I've got a great bunch of shooters on my squad to pass the ball to.

I figured it was a safe bet to make you the LeBron of golf design. I hope Hanse has better luck with the Olympic project than the Pacers had tonight. Frank Vogel is going to be unemployed in the next few days.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2014, 02:35:45 PM »
The Pacers have bigger problems than the coach, but I guess the GM won't fire himself and half of the team. Let's face it, there are four pretty good teams and one great team in the entire league. In the main, the product is unwatchable, even if a franchise can fetch $2 billion (gasp). 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2014, 03:33:16 PM »
The Pacers have bigger problems than the coach, but I guess the GM won't fire himself and half of the team. Let's face it, there are four pretty good teams and one great team in the entire league. In the main, the product is unwatchable, even if a franchise can fetch $2 billion (gasp). 

I think the Heat, Thunder, Paper Clips, and Spurs are pretty close. I just think LeBron is the difference maker. I totally agree the Larry Legend coughed up a hairball when he traded Granger and signed Bynum. I think the immaturity of Stephenson and Hibbert is a huge issue as well. Once again we shall see how Bird handles the Born Ready contract situation. If your Bulls can get just get another guy that score they would vault to the elite.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gil Hanse and Paul George
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2014, 03:52:31 PM »
The Bulls suck, too, even if the Fragile One is playing. I've had Bulls tickets since 1986 and I'm thinking it is time to say goodbye.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken