Why seemingly little interest in "A Difficult Par" [Robert Trent Jones bio]?

[Carl Johnson]

David Kelly started this thread on April 16, 2014.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6fbdcaf72fd98dfd14b07f4e1f3d9d3c&topic=58295.0

I would have thought by now that the book would have been gobbled up by many GCA members who would be commenting on it.

I've finished it and found it a page-turner, or mostly so.  Robert Trent Jones, Sr., for all his fame, has never been one of my favorite architects.  However, his importance cannot be denied.  I found the book fascinating - particularly with respect to the business aspects of his companies, his relationships with his sons Robert Jr. and Rees and theirs with each other, his wife, Ione, and Roger Rulewich and other employees.  I knew zero about these details.  I loved the author's style and apparent attention to detail, without obviously taking sides, as other authors might have.

I'd be interesting in reading what others, particularly architects, who know a lot more about the Jones and the business of being a golf architect than I do think of the book.

[George Pazin]

Many or maybe even most of the more bio-oriented readers on the site have drifted away in recent years. A few have even passed on.

Hopefully the stalwarts will see your thread and chime in. Good luck.

[Tim_Weiman]

Carl,

To be honest, I had a specific reason for wanting to check out this book and came away disappointed: the authors account of Jones building the Cashen course at Ballybunion, my single favorite piece of land in the world.

From friends in Ballybunion, including the person who hit ball and drew sketches for Mr. Jones, I knew quite a bit about the construction of the course, so I came away feeling I had far more insight into the project than the author did.

Somehow I will have to put that aside and take the time to check out the rest of the book.

[Jim Sherma]

I am looking forward to reading it. I have not ordered it yet but plan to once my schedule eases off a bit, assuming that it does that is. I am interested in the personal story and based on very limited personal experience generally like RTJ courses and would like to play more of them. While his era tends to lack the charm of the earlier era there was a lot of good golf courses built during the so-called dark ages.

[Jason Topp]

I read it and had the following thoughts:

1.  Contrary to reports from other commenters, I thought it had a ton of architectural information

2.  The story of his early career in particular is very interesting.  Usually that is the boring part of the book but to start an architecture career during the great depression is a story anyone who has a dream in a field that appears difficult should read.

3.  The Thompson relationship is probably the most interesting in the book.  A good Thompson book would be a very interesting book.

4.  I would have preferred the book be tightened up significantly.  It took me a long time to get through even though the piece parts of the story are very interesting.

5.  The author provides a lot of speculation about the appropriate resolution of the many conflicting accounts between Reese and RTJ Jr.  He lets you know when he is doing so, but it makes me uncomfortable when the people involved are still alive.

6.  Many of the design principles would make many of us cringe - visibility, fairness, aerial game, punish, etc.   

[George Pazin]

From friends in Ballybunion, including the person who hit ball and drew sketches for Mr. Jones, I knew quite a bit about the construction of the course, so I came away feeling I had far more insight into the project than the author did.

Sounds like the makings of a good In My Opinion piece...

[Carl Johnson]

I read it and had the following thoughts:

1.  Contrary to reports from other commenters, I thought it had a ton of architectural information

2.  The story of his early career in particular is very interesting.  Usually that is the boring part of the book but to start an architecture career during the great depression is a story anyone who has a dream in a field that appears difficult should read.

3.  The Thompson relationship is probably the most interesting in the book.  I don't know that I found it the most interesting, but it was certainly very interesting - a chapter in Jones' life I was unfamiliar with.  A good Thompson book would be a very interesting book.

4.  I would have preferred the book be tightened up significantly.  It took me a long time to get through even though the piece parts of the story are very interesting.  Interestingly, the author agrees that "is a long book," but adds that in the editing process over 100,000 words were deleted from his original manuscript, and that for those who want more detail, they can go to the author's website on the book, www.adifficultpar.com.  The website is supposed to be fully open "June 1."

5.  The author provides a lot of speculation about the appropriate resolution of the many conflicting accounts between Reese and RTJ Jr.  He lets you know when he is doing so, but it makes me uncomfortable when the people involved are still alive.

Jason, I understand your being uncomfortable, but the "Acknowledgments" and the "Note on Sources" sections make clear that the author had lots of cooperation on the book from the Jones boys, who must have understood that it would air a lot of less-than-favorable family issues.  Moreover, the author states on page 482: "In sum, both brothers and their families gave me extremely generous assistance.  In return, I lived up to the promise I made to both Bobby [Jr.] and Rees -- that I would show them the completed manuscript and would 'engage' every comment they offered, as best I could, 'consistent with my own voice and professional judgment as a historian and biographer."  I haven't looked to see if either Bobby or Rees has published any comments on the book after it came out, but I'm going to do so.

Although frequently I'll skip an author's acknowledgments and notes on sources sections, I read them in this book and believe they are a not just afterthought add-ons, but a critical part of any reading, understanding and full appreciation of this book.

6.  Many of the design principles would make many of us cringe - visibility, fairness, aerial game, punish, etc.  

[Jason Topp]

Jason, I understand your being uncomfortable, but the "Acknowledgments" and the "Note on Sources" sections make clear that the authors had lots of cooperation on the book from the Jones boys, who must have understood that it would air a lot of less-than-favorable family issues.  Moreover, the author states on page 482: "In sum, both brothers and their families gave me extremely generous assistance.  In return, I lived up to the promise I made to both Bobby [Jr.] and Rees -- that I would show them the completed manuscript and would 'engage' every comment they offered, as best I could, 'consistent with my own voice and professional judgment as a historian and biographer."  I haven't looked to see if either Bobby or Rees has published any comments on the book after it came out, but I'm going to do so.

Although frequently I'll skip an author's acknowledgments and notes on sources sections, I read them in this book and believe they are a not just afterthought add-ons, but a critical part of any reading, understanding and full appreciation of this book.

Good point Carl.  I did not make it to the notes so I did not read that description. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Reading it now, in bits every night.  Might discuss after I finish, but it is obviously of interest to me. I was told by Bobby and Rees to read the acknowledgements first, as they would give an indication of the authors mindset in this book.

[Carl Johnson]

Reading it now, in bits every night.  Might discuss after I finish, but it is obviously of interest to me. I was told by Bobby and Rees to read the acknowledgements first, as they would give an indication of the authors mindset in this book.

Jeff, I would also suggest reading the "Note on Sources" first, too, because it goes into his (author's) dealings with Bobby and Rees.

[Sean_A]

To answer the question, I don't have much interest in the book because I don't have much interest in RTJ.  While he may be influential in the business, he hasn't had any influence on me so spending £20 on the book isn't terribly enticing.

Ciao 

[Ronald Montesano]

3.  The Thompson relationship is probably the most interesting in the book.  A good Thompson book would be a very interesting book.

Ask and you get: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=11531670370&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26amp%3Btn%3Dthe%2Btoronto%2Bterror

[Mike_Young]

I thought the book was very well written and should be read by any young person wishing to enter the field.  It was a sad book and had to be difficult for family and past employees.  And it was explained by the author in the acknowledgements that many people would not grant interviews for the book especially some other architects.  A few of the things that stood out to me in the book were things I had always suspected but had not researched and could only assume.
1.  He wanted the design business to be viewed as a profession and reached  for such in many different ways.  The books mentions that he felt the architect should not be on the dozer because it was not professional.
2.  He always had at least two construction companies owned by himself and he did not always let the client know such.
3.  He pushed for the creation of the ASGCA as a trade restrictive group with such things as fixed fees and regions. 
4.  The two guys that IMHO were his biggest nemesis were not mentioned but once in a very small way.  Dick Wilson and Joe Lee.  How was the book written without mention? 
I actually felt sorry for the guy....

[Sam Morrow]

I thought the book was very well written and should be read by any young person wishing to enter the field.  It was a sad book and had to be difficult for family and past employees.  And it was explained by the author in the acknowledgements that many people would not grant interviews for the book especially some other architects.  A few of the things that stood out to me in the book were things I had always suspected but had not researched and could only assume.
1.  He wanted the design business to be viewed as a profession and reached  for such in many different ways.  The books mentions that he felt the architect should not be on the dozer because it was not professional.
2.  He always had at least two construction companies owned by himself and he did not always let the client know such.
3.  He pushed for the creation of the ASGCA as a trade restrictive group with such things as fixed fees and regions. 
4.  The two guys that IMHO were his biggest nemesis were not mentioned but once in a very small way.  Dick Wilson and Joe Lee.  How was the book written without mention? 
I actually felt sorry for the guy....

I know nothing of RTJ the man, I know his sons hate each other. Was this brought on by their father?

[Mike_Young]

Sam,
You need to read the book.  I don't think anyone can answer that.  But the author did a good scholarly effort of putting everyting he could out there. 
Ask him at the Dixie Cup