[Tim_Weiman]

There have been many lists of the "best" or "greatest" golf courses, but I don't recall ever seeing any list of the best land an architect had to work with to build what became a well known course.

If I had to pick the single best property I've seen to build a course and play golf, it would probably be Royal Melbourne. The rolling nature of the land, just enough elevation change to create interesting holes while maintaining high marks for walk ability really stands out for me. The soil conditions and vegetation also stand out. What also makes the property cool, IMO, is the location not really that for from Melbourne city centre.

Sure, Royal Melbourne is a great course. But, I found the property itself to be a star.

Just wondered what others thought. What properties are really special in their own right?

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

Most people are not going to put together such a list because they can only tell how good the land was by looking at the finished golf course, which doesn't make for fair comparison.

Then again, it has become de rigeur for modern designers to promote a new project by saying it is the best piece of land they've ever had to work on.  I must have read this 20 times in Golf Architecture magazine over the past couple of years.  Jack Nicklaus' web site says it about the new course at Gleneagles that will host the Ryder Cup.

[Michael Felton]

Hi Tom,

If I might expand a little on Tim's post, have you ever seen any pieces of land where you would think that anyone who knew anything about golf would be able to put a decent (but perhaps not great) course together? Where the land was so good that no amount of bungling effort from the architect could ruin it (assuming they were trying to make a decent golf course)?

Also (and I appreciate you may not be able to say anyway), one thing I'd be fascinated to see is a piece of really good land that doesn't have a golf course on it. Do you know of any really good parcels of land where a course fell through because of money or permitting or anything else that are still there in their raw state? I always like to read the book before I watch the movie because when I read a book it is like seeing a movie in my head. If I watch the movie first, then that's what I see in my head. It's a bit like that with golf courses. Once the course is there, I find it very hard to imagine it without the golf course there to picture what I might have done differently. I'd love to see a good piece of land that hasn't yet been used to try to picture the course.

[Tim_Weiman]

Michael,

As far as undeveloped the land, probably the most famous great piece of land I've seen is the Inch Peninsula in Dingle Bay right across from Dooks, one of my favorite places in golf.

There are some big time developers who are well aware of the property, e.g., Herb Kohler, but getting planning permission has been damn near impossible.

Dr. Arthur Spring, whose brother was once prime minister, is the person who introduced me to the property. At the point (circa 2000), he had already spent about fifteen years trying to get permits. So, it just may never happen.

But, the place is amazing. There are golf holes all over the place. The only problem is what some have called "embryonic dunes" that you might not actually be able to build on.

The other place worth mentioning is the Mornington Peninsula south of Melbourne. Of course, there are several golf courses down there, including my favorite of Tom Doak's course - St Andrews Beach. But, my impression is that more good to great land exists there that would be great for golf.

[Michael Felton]

Thanks Tim - that Inch Peninsula piece of land looks incredible on google maps. Awesome stuff.

[Tom_Doak]

Hi Tom,

If I might expand a little on Tim's post, have you ever seen any pieces of land where you would think that anyone who knew anything about golf would be able to put a decent (but perhaps not great) course together? Where the land was so good that no amount of bungling effort from the architect could ruin it (assuming they were trying to make a decent golf course)?

Also (and I appreciate you may not be able to say anyway), one thing I'd be fascinated to see is a piece of really good land that doesn't have a golf course on it. Do you know of any really good parcels of land where a course fell through because of money or permitting or anything else that are still there in their raw state? I always like to read the book before I watch the movie because when I read a book it is like seeing a movie in my head. If I watch the movie first, then that's what I see in my head. It's a bit like that with golf courses. Once the course is there, I find it very hard to imagine it without the golf course there to picture what I might have done differently. I'd love to see a good piece of land that hasn't yet been used to try to picture the course.

Michael:

To your first question, any sandy site that features relatively gentle contours ought to produce a good course, regardless of the architect.  Naturally, though, some layouts would be considered better than others.  The difference will probably have more to do with their abilities at construction of greens and bunkers, than with the routing, because few observers can differentiate how the routings have really driven the rest.

To your second question, there are still great sites for golf all over the world, if they'll let you build a course on them.  I will be happy to let you know about a couple of them, if you want ... unfortunately, the two I have my eye on right now are both quite far from home.

[Matt Bielawa]

Anywhere in the Sand Hills of Nebraska.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I think the upper half of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan has vast reserves of great property to build golf courses.  Great soils, coolish climate, forests, dunes, etc.  I think you could build about 100 Forest Dunes or better (not to take anything away from Forest Dunes).  There are already a multitude of golf resorts up there, but not all that many that excite architecturally (Arcadia, Kingsley, CD aside, my point is there should be more).  To me it has the potential to be another Sandhills, NC, or Mornington Peninsula type of place.

In general the question is a tough one.  Do you mean best land for a golf course in the pure sense (100 foot cliffs down to the ocean type stuff)?  Or in the value sense of proximity to population bases, cost, potential for minimalist construction, climate, soils, and holes that are basically already there for the taking?

As for pure breathtaking wow factor, google some images of the Faroe Islands.  Unfortunately it barely nudges above 50 degrees and rains 260 days a year...

[Mike Nuzzo]

Why does the land matter as much as you imply?
How good does the land have to be to make a great course?

[Thomas Dai]

The dune complex in the photograph below - it's across the bay behind the 9th tee at Narin & Portnoo - looks interesting. I believe the area is called Dooey,

So much dune land along the Donegal coast though, as well as the above the dunes at Corgannive, between Falcarragh and Dunfanaghy, cover a huge area and are absolutely enormous in height. Maybe too high?

I guess dune complexes like these were once upon a time pretty much impossible to successfully build a course on, but now with big machines........

Sand. The best terrain?

atb


(Dooey dunes as seen from Narin & Portnoo 9th tee)

[Tim_Weiman]

Why does the land matter as much as you imply?
How good does the land have to be to make a great course?

Mike,

I wasn't sure who were asking, but I really meant to ask about the land itself not what the architect did or could do with it?

Now, does the land matter? That is probably worth a thread in its own right, but beyond the obvious answers about the opportunity "good land" presents to build good golf holes, to me the biggest issue with the land is the opportunity to develop a course with its own character - something that is unique, different than other courses, worth going out of one's way to see.

How good does the land have to be to make a great course? Again, that is probably worth it's own thread, but I would say there certainly are great courses on properties that aren't that good. For example, I think Kingston Heath is a really special course, but is the land really that great? Certainly not compared to Royal Melbourne.

[Randy Thompson]

Sometimes the land is so good, there are golf holes in every direction and believe it or not, these are usually the one that take the most time because your always questioning yourself and try to weigh out all the pluses...but what if and if and if until, the light comes on and you feel, this is it!

[Tyler Kearns]

Randy,

Good pieces of property with nice topography for finding golf holes require a lot of work in the routing process.  While there may be golf holes in every direction, routing a course such as you describe is difficult.  The difficulty lies in linking 18 holes that flow nicely together, require little earthwork and minimize blind shots.  Often a few excellent holes need to be sacrificed to ensure a better golf course is delivered to the client.

TK

[Tim_Weiman]

Tyler:

Which well known courses stand out most for you in terms of the quality of the land?

[JC Urbina]

Tim,

I think the sand dune landforms that appear out of nowhere in Hutchinson Kansas are a great example of good land for a golf course.

[Kye Goalby]

Tim,

I think the sand dune landforms that appear out of nowhere in Hutchinson Kansas are a great example of good land for a golf course.

Jim,
I think someone already figured that out. About 80 years ago!

[Mark Pearce]

The dunes around Noordwijkse looked, to my untrained eye, like world class land for building a golf course.  There's some pretty good land on the Monterey Peninsula, too, I think.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,

I think the sand dune landforms that appear out of nowhere in Hutchinson Kansas are a great example of good land for a golf course.

Jim,

Can you cite your top three? That is the three best properties an architect had to work with to build a  good to great course.

[Colin Macqueen]

Michael,

Take a look on Google at the coastline north of Perth, Western Australia in particular Lancelin north to Jurien Bay. A dunescape the likes of which I had never imagined or seen before and it goes on for miles and miles and miles!

There is a course at Lancelin with an honour box for the payment of $10 a round! The course has synthetic tees and oil greens but fairways winding through the magnificent dunes which would allow any architect  to practice minimalism without doing a thing!! This part of the country is windswept so provides scrumptious conditions for golfers craving real golf. The courses along this stretch are spare and rare. Why so?  I guess population density is just not there to provide anything more substantial and the winds do ensure that there are a lot of "marching dunes" so the architect may see their architecture evolve before their very eyes.

I suspect in reality that golf courses of renown in this area would be a pipe dream. However for the golfer with wanderlust and an eye for golf in the raw at bargain basement prices a trek through this region would be a lot of fun.

Cheers Colin

[Josh Stevens]

To be great i think it is a question of having various scales of terrain. Large scale hills and slopes over which to drape the course and create the macro strategy and feel. But then you also need the micro bumps and swales to make it really interesting.
Royal melbourne to me had the macro but the micro looked as though it was man made.  Many links on the other hand have the micro but lack the macro. Rare to get both.

As clayton says constantly,no other city is so blessed with such wondeful golfing land and has such crap courses as Perth. But we are a small town.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Michael,

As far as undeveloped the land, probably the most famous great piece of land I've seen is the Inch Peninsula in Dingle Bay right across from Dooks, one of my favorite places in golf.

There are some big time developers who are well aware of the property, e.g., Herb Kohler, but getting planning permission has been damn near impossible.

Dr. Arthur Spring, whose brother was once prime minister, is the person who introduced me to the property.

Tim someone has promoted him!
His most successful political relative is his uncle Dick, who I recall playing Rugby for Ireland. But he was a minority party leader and never likely to be Taoiseach (Prime Minister of Ireland).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Spring


Seems like Arthur has now entered politics?  Maybe that will help with permits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Spring


(It's possible there are tow Arthur Spring's in which case Dick would likely be his Cousin or Brother.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe that Bill Coore stated that the Sand Hills in Nebraska were the best sites for golf in either the U.S. Or the world

[Josh Stevens]

Also worth considering whether you mean now, or 80 years ago.

Perth for example is pure sand but with a Mediterranean climate of hot dry summers.  Without bores and modern retic, it would simply not be possible to keep a course grassed during the harsh summers, whilst the Melbourne Sandbelt has more evenly spread rainfall.

Would the Nebraska sandhills have been possible 80 years ago without modern machinery and reticulation.

[Paul Gray]

Why does the land matter as much as you imply?
How good does the land have to be to make a great course?

Huh?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

So, what makes for the ideal woman?  Redhead or Blond?

There can be more than one right answer here.....

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