NCAA at Prairie Dunes

[Patrick_Mucci]

For those who claim that Prairie Dunes is "wide" or "plenty wide", how would you compare today's width with the pre-2006 Senior Open width ?

If it's "wide" or "plenty wide" today, what was it pre the preparation for the 2006 Senior Open ?

Speak up boys !

[Sean Leary]

It could/should be wider in places but it really isn't that narrow. 
It just seems that way because the gunch is death. 

David,

The course/fairways were narrowed, intentionally, and never returned to their previous widths.

With "death" as you call it, looming at the flanks, the fairways should be wider.

The fairways should be widened, with the non-gunch rough shrunk, as the gunch will remain in place.

It's too penal the way it is.

Everyone watching the NCAA's seems to forget that the members and their guests aren't as good as the best golfers on the best college golf teams in the country.

Did you see my posts and question above? Would appreciate your thoughts and perspective.

Sean,

Yes.

I addressed your comments in reply # 64 and agree with most of what you said.

I was talking about my posts in 65 and 66.

Despite what Pat refuses to believe, the rough does keep some balls out of the gunsch. The rough is normally kept very light and when the wind blows, sometimes I prefer to be in the rough hitting into the breeze so it spins less.

Here is where I would like to see fairways extended.

Left on 3
Right on 16
The entire way on 17, especially as you get closer to the green. This is the one hole the looks Merionified to me.
Left on 18.
 Other than that I am ok with the fairway width. The gunsch is a different story but that cannot effectively be changed. 

[Dave McCollum]

I enjoyed the TV.  Push carts and rangefinders aside, I liked seeing no caddies, players raking their own bunkers, packing their clubs, replacing their divots, holding the flags for their opponents, and so on.  Not so sure about the coaches slowing things down.  I never watch live golf—thanks, DVR—so I have no idea about the POP, but it seemed pretty slow.  Maybe limit advice to between holes.  How long can it take?  Thirty seconds seems adequate on the walk from green to tee.   The course looked good to me.  The gunch was extreme, but the greens were magnificent.  Chris C. seems to know what he is talking about.

Final comment:  TV is not a good way to get a feel for the architecture.  It could be, but that’s not the focus of the production which is on the human drama, who wins and loses, and that turns it into a putting display.  I don’t fault the producers.  They know what folks want, what sells Chialis, and their business.  Most viewers couldn’t care less about the golf course.  Who won?  That’s it, who cares about how the grass or gunch is cut?

[Scott Warren]

This is why it's pointless trying to have a discussion with Pat Mucci.

Chris, who knows the topic inside-out, says "all the fairways were at least 35-40 yards wide", to which Mucci responds "since when is 30 yards in the dz plenty wide?".

It's even more tiresome than hoary old lines about Ford models, barbecue charcoal and ATVs in the Hamptons.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Sean, I saw this post about #15 at Golfwrx...interesting that he notes that the trees on the left were worked on a few years ago.

"I've played the course my whole life; it is a daunting tee shot. After hitting high draws all day, the player is forced to hit a low cut. The Chute, as the hole is named, has been made a bit more playable in the past couple of years. Some limbs on the left trees were removed, making an opening up the middle. It used to be a straight chute that rejected any and all high shots. As such, I was previously forced to club up and hit a stinger- to an uphill green that slopes away. If the greens were at their normal firmness, it would be the toughest tee shot on the course. Alas, the greens are the softest I have seen in my 20+ years of playing the course. Interestingly, the hole is the #18 handicap."

[Jim Nugent]

After working the course for a walk thru on Thursday, 6 holes on Friday, 48 holes Saturday, 36 Sunday, 36 Monday and 34 today I feel pretty good about my estimates.  Hole #6 is WIDE where those kids hit it (maybe not your drive zone ).  And believe to or not, we had to wait on the tee as some kids actually went for the green and put it in the green side bunker!

Fairway is absolutely 40 yards plus wide past the left bunker--NO DOUBT.  #8 is narrow at the 350 mark.  Hole played 468.  Most kids hit hybrids or 3 woods to the flatfish portion short of where fairway bends right.  Average play I saw was a 3 wood and 6 iron.

#16 is similar.  From new tee at 429 most kids hit 3 wood, hybrid or iron to the flat portion short of both FW bunkers.  Few tried driver and thoe that did brought bunkers and gunch into play as the line had to be over the right bunker.  One stroke play round I had Patrick Reed.  After he played a driver over the right bunker he had between 50-60 yards for his approach

#17 is narrow and plays blind to a fairway canted away from.  The 7th hole was a driver and 8-Wedge and 17 was very reachable at 523 as well.  Drivers, 3 woods and hybrids in equal number.  Fairway is absolutely 30 yards wide (though to to hit because of above).  Still, great drives resulted in iron second shots.  Balls in first or second cut meant a wedge, wedge approach.

Are guys like these, with their great length, going to take over the tour and majors in coming years? 

[Chris Cupit]

If they can keep the ball in the fairway then certainly. The difference in many matches turned on what player avoided a mistake of hitting a loose shot in the tall stuff. Putting inside 6 feet was a separator too

[Mike_Young]

Chris,
I'm working in Costa Rica and is not on TV here but Rymer tells me a lot of you rules guys are walking around all hunched over and are getting little boners when you get to make rulings and he is doing his best not to let it show on TV....also claims he was not at a buffet...

[Michael Felton]

After working the course for a walk thru on Thursday, 6 holes on Friday, 48 holes Saturday, 36 Sunday, 36 Monday and 34 today I feel pretty good about my estimates.  Hole #6 is WIDE where those kids hit it (maybe not your drive zone ).  And believe to or not, we had to wait on the tee as some kids actually went for the green and put it in the green side bunker!

Fairway is absolutely 40 yards plus wide past the left bunker--NO DOUBT.  #8 is narrow at the 350 mark.  Hole played 468.  Most kids hit hybrids or 3 woods to the flatfish portion short of where fairway bends right.  Average play I saw was a 3 wood and 6 iron.

#16 is similar.  From new tee at 429 most kids hit 3 wood, hybrid or iron to the flat portion short of both FW bunkers.  Few tried driver and thoe that did brought bunkers and gunch into play as the line had to be over the right bunker.  One stroke play round I had Patrick Reed.  After he played a driver over the right bunker he had between 50-60 yards for his approach

#17 is narrow and plays blind to a fairway canted away from.  The 7th hole was a driver and 8-Wedge and 17 was very reachable at 523 as well.  Drivers, 3 woods and hybrids in equal number.  Fairway is absolutely 30 yards wide (though to to hit because of above).  Still, great drives resulted in iron second shots.  Balls in first or second cut meant a wedge, wedge approach.

Are guys like these, with their great length, going to take over the tour and majors in coming years? 

Start winning on tour and majors? Yes. Take over? No I don't think so. The length echelons of professional golf see the longest guys playing mini tour golf, then web.com and finally the PGA tour are probably on average the shortest. Lots of college guys hit it longer than most of the PGA tour (Bubba and co notwithstanding), but the games are different. I think the PGA tour is a lot more about finesse and consistency. There is a pretty long list of people who can go out and shoot 63 for 18 holes. There's a much shorter list of people who can go out and shoot 265-270 for 72 holes. Especially on the types of courses the PGA tour plays.

I think that the kids like Rodgers will get out there and do pretty well, but I would expect that he'll get shorter in search of consistency.

[Chris Cupit]

I'm working in Costa Rica and is not on TV here but Rymer tells me a lot of you rules guys are walking around all hunched over and are getting little boners when you get to make rulings and he is doing his best not to let it show on TV....also claims he was not at a buffet...

Rymer molests small animals
He's just mad Tech can't seem to win a match
I will concede that he may be an expert on identifying little boners though 

[Chris Cupit]

We had 156 really talented kids. Many "can't miss" ones for sure. Out of this bunch 3-5 may have significant professional success and half of those will be guys the "experts" never heard of!!  So many factors go into success on tour you would be crazy to try and predict who makes that next step.

[Mike_Young]

Chris,
Are they on the air yet?  Not getting a reply to your comments from the large one...

[Chris Cupit]

Chris,
Are they on the air yet?  Not getting a reply to your comments from the large one...

Not till the afternoon. First match is 2:00 CDT.

Had the Alabama vs LSU first match yesterday. Bobby versus Benjamin. Solid match. On 9 Ben calls me over to tell me when he was in the hay he caused his ball to move about a millimeter on his backswing. One stroke penalty and it gave Bobby a 2 Up lead. Fights back with great birdie on 10. Benjamin is 1DN on 14. He's in bunker and Bibby is short sided after his drive. (Both players tried to drive the green). Anyway Benjamin is from the UK where they often play stones in bunkers as moveable obstructions. Before his coach or I realized what he was doing (I literally was yelling "Benjamin stop", he had picked a stone up. Loss of Hole. Two DN with four to play. Total momentum shift and Bobby closed him out 3&2. Shame as it was a well played match.

[Sean Leary]

Sean, I saw this post about #15 at Golfwrx...interesting that he notes that the trees on the left were worked on a few years ago.

"I've played the course my whole life; it is a daunting tee shot. After hitting high draws all day, the player is forced to hit a low cut. The Chute, as the hole is named, has been made a bit more playable in the past couple of years. Some limbs on the left trees were removed, making an opening up the middle. It used to be a straight chute that rejected any and all high shots. As such, I was previously forced to club up and hit a stinger- to an uphill green that slopes away. If the greens were at their normal firmness, it would be the toughest tee shot on the course. Alas, the greens are the softest I have seen in my 20+ years of playing the course. Interestingly, the hole is the #18 handicap."

Sounds right. I know they have limbed up some of those trees a bit this year anyway. The branches on the right have grown out since I have been a member  so that a high slight draw could hit them. I don't like that at all, especially when the tee is near the back of the tee box.

[Mike_Young]

That's a tough one...you guys have fun...

[BCowan]

Pat,

The rough and gunsch are separate things and issues. There are a lot of older members at PD ( a couple even older than you) and they don't hit the ball very high. I am just saying that one positive is that the rough in its current setup prevents some ball from getting into the gunsch.

Beyond a badge of honor, there are financial restrictions with maintaining the gunsch as well.

Sean,

  Have there been talks about replacing the gunsch with thinly seeded fescue?  Couple holes a year to offset the costs?  Burn and seed.  My guess is the soil is sandy?  Love the course from TV and photos. 

[Sean Leary]

Pat,

The rough and gunsch are separate things and issues. There are a lot of older members at PD ( a couple even older than you) and they don't hit the ball very high. I am just saying that one positive is that the rough in its current setup prevents some ball from getting into the gunsch.

Beyond a badge of honor, there are financial restrictions with maintaining the gunsch as well.

Sean,

  Have there been talks about replacing the gunsch with thinly seeded fescue?  Couple holes a year to offset the costs?  Burn and seed.  My guess is the soil is sandy?  Love the course from TV and photos. 

Not that I am aware of and it seems impossible.  It's native grass and it's beyond huge.

I have always wished that the native could be like Ballyneals when it first opened. Not sure how it is now as it's been years since I have been there. Wondering if that has gotten worse over time due to runoff from grass maintainance.

[Terry Lavin]

If you ever lost the gunsch, you'd never have an opportunity like the one I saw on television where a player named Gooch was in the gunsch!

[Jud_T]

I'm a little surprised that the heavy stuff is so, well, heavy this early in the season.  We had the worst winter in a generation and it only warmed up a couple weeks ago.   Do they not cut it down at least once a year?  What's the average age/handicap of the membership?  Are they generally happy with the presentation of the course?

[Carl Nichols]

Chris,
Are they on the air yet?  Not getting a reply to your comments from the large one...

Not till the afternoon. First match is 2:00 CDT.

Had the Alabama vs LSU first match yesterday. Bobby versus Benjamin. Solid match. On 9 Ben calls me over to tell me when he was in the hay he caused his ball to move about a millimeter on his backswing. One stroke penalty and it gave Bobby a 2 Up lead. Fights back with great birdie on 10. Benjamin is 1DN on 14. He's in bunker and Bibby is short sided after his drive. (Both players tried to drive the green). Anyway Benjamin is from the UK where they often play stones in bunkers as moveable obstructions. Before his coach or I realized what he was doing (I literally was yelling "Benjamin stop", he had picked a stone up. Loss of Hole. Two DN with four to play. Total momentum shift and Bobby closed him out 3&2. Shame as it was a well played match.

That sucks.  But hasn't he played in the US for at least an entire season? 

[Sean Leary]

I'm a little surprised that the heavy stuff is so, well, heavy this early in the season.  We had the worst winter in a generation and it only warmed up a couple weeks ago.   Do they not cut it down at least once a year?  What's the average age/handicap of the membership?  Are they generally happy with the presentation of the course?

It actually is less dense and lighter this year because of the weather. There is a burn program where they do a scheduled burn every couple of years. They also do work to manage anything that grows with a wood stem so to speak. but it is the midwest and it is native and it grows REALLY fast.

Average age is near death and handicaps run the gamut. Members learn how to play the course keeping the ball down and way from trouble as much as possible. I believe they generally they are happy  as there is a badge of honor element to the difficulty presented. The members are not happy with no wind this past week as no one likes to see their course get taken apart like they did.

[Terry Lavin]

I'm a little surprised that the heavy stuff is so, well, heavy this early in the season.  We had the worst winter in a generation and it only warmed up a couple weeks ago.   Do they not cut it down at least once a year?  What's the average age/handicap of the membership?  Are they generally happy with the presentation of the course?

It actually is less dense and lighter this year because of the weather. There is a burn program where they do a scheduled burn every couple of years. They also do work to manage anything that grows with a wood stem so to speak. but it is the midwest and it is native and it grows REALLY fast.

Average age is near death and handicaps run the gamut. Members learn how to play the course keeping the ball down and way from trouble as much as possible. I believe they generally they are happy  as there is a badge of honor element to the difficulty presented. The members are not happy with no wind this past week as no one likes to see their course get taken apart like they did.

Sean,

This is one of the most astute posts regarding the attitude of a membership hosting a big event that I've ever seen on the site.  I can just see the stereotypical 72 year-old retired Hutch banker bemoaning softness of the turf and the weakness of the winds while the college kids were competing.  I can only imagine how many Member Guest events wound up with wacky scores because of the seemingly ever-present 25 m.p.h. plus winds that zip across Prairie Dunes.  The truth is, the average member of a private club wants to see great players suffer on their own field of dreams, a course that has humbled and frustrated them for decades.  It's human nature, after all.

[Terry Lavin]

OT on this wonderful thread, but I may start a petition to get Kelly Tilghman removed from not only the Golf Channel, but anywhere on television sans for the occasional infomercial for Kevin Trudeau.

In that vein, it has chapped my ass for years that my buddy Dave Seanor got fired for having a noose on the cover of Golfweek.  He was highlighting the controversy.  She created it.  He gets fired and she keeps her job after Tiger publicly forgave her.  She should be working on Animal Planet now.

[William_G]

OT on this wonderful thread, but I may start a petition to get Kelly Tilghman removed from not only the Golf Channel, but anywhere on television sans for the occasional infomercial for Kevin Trudeau.

where do I sign?

[Sean Leary]

I'm a little surprised that the heavy stuff is so, well, heavy this early in the season.  We had the worst winter in a generation and it only warmed up a couple weeks ago.   Do they not cut it down at least once a year?  What's the average age/handicap of the membership?  Are they generally happy with the presentation of the course?

It actually is less dense and lighter this year because of the weather. There is a burn program where they do a scheduled burn every couple of years. They also do work to manage anything that grows with a wood stem so to speak. but it is the midwest and it is native and it grows REALLY fast.

Average age is near death and handicaps run the gamut. Members learn how to play the course keeping the ball down and way from trouble as much as possible. I believe they generally they are happy  as there is a badge of honor element to the difficulty presented. The members are not happy with no wind this past week as no one likes to see their course get taken apart like they did.

Sean,

This is one of the most astute posts regarding the attitude of a membership hosting a big event that I've ever seen on the site.  I can just see the stereotypical 72 year-old retired Hutch banker bemoaning softness of the turf and the weakness of the winds while the college kids were competing.  I can only imagine how many Member Guest events wound up with wacky scores because of the seemingly ever-present 25 m.p.h. plus winds that zip across Prairie Dunes.  The truth is, the average member of a private club wants to see great players suffer on their own field of dreams, a course that has humbled and frustrated them for decades.  It's human nature, after all.

The last time PD held a big event was the US Senior Open in 2006, and there was no wind, the tees were up and the members STILL bitch about it. The wind ALWAYS blows there, as you know, so to have it happen again is unreal.