NCAA at Prairie Dunes

[Patrick_Mucci]

So  everybody raving about Prairie Dunes doesn't object to narrowed fairways ?

They've been consistent for a long time (and are unchanged for this event).  The fairways are really wide out there.

They've been narrowed, as were Newport's.

Does it matter if they were narrowed last month, last year or several years ago ?

And, they were narrowed for a significant competition, as were Newport's, and never returned to their prior width.

You can't give a course a pass because you like the frilly bunkers or some other features.

Narrowing fairways, rarely, if ever, benefits the membership

[Terry Lavin]

I don't like the narrowed fairways either. But the last time I offered that gentle criticism, I was pilloried by the PD faithful. I think PD is awesome but would be better with wider fairways and fewer cottonwoods, whose seeds are plentiful this week. And the Chute par 3 hole doesn't really look so great on TV either. Those are relatively niggling criticisms, however, even if the members and other defenders find them baseless and heretical.

[Paul Jones]

What a fun day. Had Patrick (Stanford), Corey (Alabama)  and Wyndham (Ok St). Three great golfers and nice kids. Just a couple observations. All hit 9 irons into 4. Patrick had driver wedge on 7. Downwind. Par5. On hole 11, 535 Par 4 with a very slight breeze quartering and helping Patrick had 175-180 for second shot. On 18, playing downwind Corey hit 5 iron and gap wedge  

Have two matches tomorrow

I am going to be watching make sure you don't kick any balls out the rough from the GT players :-).  Glad to see LSU doing well.

I really liked the way the coaches get involved in helping the players.  Do they do that every tournament or just the NCAA ?

[Josh Tarble]

On TV at least, I thought PD reminded me a lot of Crystal Downs - all the way to the narrowed fairways.  At least at CD it didn't make or break the course for me, so I'm sure that's the case at Prairie Dunes. 

Overall, I thought it looked fantastic on TV and the drama of the event was great.  I've never seen multiple people nail so many clutch putts like the UCLA team. 

[Andrew Buck]

Chris,

I know originally the plan was to have the teams 54 hole qualifying conclude on Sunday with the top 40 individuals competing for the individual title on Monday, and then match play beginning today.  Since this is the first year with that format, I assume that was a Golf Channel decision to make the Monday round like a real tournament with the leaders coming in at the end.  Obviously, the weather prevented that from happening. 

In the end, I think it made better tv to have the team qualifying alongside the individual championship.  Of course, if there hadn't been any individuals in contention at the end, it may have been different, but I thought the drama was much better the way it worked.  Do you think in the future they may stick to that format, and have the team and individual event conclude together. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I know it is a great course, I do, I do, I do, but yesterday afternoon I watched every second of the coverage while monitoring this site and was shocked at the lack of discussion of how the course is maintained.  The unrecoverable gunch, narrow fairways and a shute on a par three that you not only have to hit through, you have to hit under.  Rich Harvest Links anyone?  Since I know it is a great course it is my opinion that the TV coverage did the course a great disservice.  I don't get it.  Oh, and were the greens slowed down for the event because where were the issues for these young players.  Could blame the rain for the course being soft but if that is the case the fairways are even that much more too narrow.

Since I am most certainly wrong the course must not have looked good on TV.

[Brian Finn]

Coming off my first visit to PD just a few weeks ago, I can say that the fairways are far from narrow, even if they have been narrowed...this coming from a rather erratic driver of the ball (I have a lovely snap hook / massive push combo).  I found the course immensely playable.

[John Kavanaugh]

Coming off my first visit to PD just a few weeks ago, I can say that the fairways are far from narrow, even if they have been narrowed...this coming from a rather erratic driver of the ball (I have a lovely snap hook / massive push combo).  I found the course immensely playable.

Do you include the short rough is what you call fairway?

[Brian Finn]

Coming off my first visit to PD just a few weeks ago, I can say that the fairways are far from narrow, even if they have been narrowed...this coming from a rather erratic driver of the ball (I have a lovely snap hook / massive push combo).  I found the course immensely playable.

Do you include the short rough is what you call fairway?

No.  I thought the actual fairways were plenty wide.  I have no idea what the measurements are, and I am sure some of the PD members that participate on this site could provide far better context.  Just my takeaway following 5+ rounds in early May.

[John Kavanaugh]

Coming off my first visit to PD just a few weeks ago, I can say that the fairways are far from narrow, even if they have been narrowed...this coming from a rather erratic driver of the ball (I have a lovely snap hook / massive push combo).  I found the course immensely playable.

Do you include the short rough is what you call fairway?

No.  I thought the actual fairways were plenty wide.  I have no idea what the measurements are, and I am sure some of the PD members that participate on this site could provide far better context.  Just my takeaway following 5+ rounds in early May.

Thank you, which seems to go with my contention that TV did the course a disservice.  I would love to hear what people saw that they thought looked good.  What is odd is that Benton Harbor looked great on TV this weekend and it gets nary a nod on this site.

[Terry Lavin]

Not all of the fairways are narrow. But many are. And not every hole is hemmed in by the gunsch, but many are. The good thing about the gunsch is that it's easy to find a ball. Somebody else's!

 But the penal nature of the course by now is not just a matter of setup; it seems to be the culture of the place. I totally understand that the membership of a classic course like PD might gravitate slowly but surely to making the course tougher in ways that seem inimical to gca purists. They want the course to be relevant to top flight competition. Happens all the time, even at a shrine like Merion. I'll go ahead and apologize to the PD members who bleat that the fairways aren't narrow and the gunsch is sort of out of play. I apologize, because I love the place despite its perceived shortcomings.

[Nigel Islam]

Coming off my first visit to PD just a few weeks ago, I can say that the fairways are far from narrow, even if they have been narrowed...this coming from a rather erratic driver of the ball (I have a lovely snap hook / massive push combo).  I found the course immensely playable.

Do you include the short rough is what you call fairway?

No.  I thought the actual fairways were plenty wide.  I have no idea what the measurements are, and I am sure some of the PD members that participate on this site could provide far better context.  Just my takeaway following 5+ rounds in early May.

I played there last month too. The fairways are plenty wide enough. I'm not that good and only missed two with the wind gusting to 40mph.   It is not a course that rewards those who don't think about their shots before hitting them though. I do agree with JakaB that the 15th is not the most visually appealing hole. I feel the opposite about 12 though. The field goal trees make that hole a great hole. I think Press was much more sadistic than Perry.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Coming off my first visit to PD just a few weeks ago, I can say that the fairways are far from narrow, even if they have been narrowed...this coming from a rather erratic driver of the ball (I have a lovely snap hook / massive push combo).  I found the course immensely playable.

Brian & Nigel,

What are your handicap indexes ?

With the incredibly penal nature of the flanking gunk, why would anyone endorse narrower fairways at PD ?

For the membership ?

For a significant competition ?

[Sean Leary]

Not all of the fairways are narrow. But many are. And not every hole is hemmed in by the gunsch, but many are. The good thing about the gunsch is that it's easy to find a ball. Somebody else's!

 But the penal nature of the course by now is not just a matter of setup; it seems to be the culture of the place. I totally understand that the membership of a classic course like PD might gravitate slowly but surely to making the course tougher in ways that seem inimical to gca purists. They want the course to be relevant to top flight competition. Happens all the time, even at a shrine like Merion. I'll go ahead and apologize to the PD members who bleat that the fairways aren't narrow and the gunsch is sort of out of play. I apologize, because I love the place despite its perceived shortcomings.

PD member here ready to attack.

Gunsch is by far the biggest shortfall of the course and yes many of the members look at it as a badge of honor. I do not, as I think it keeps it out of the very top echelon of courses.

As for the rough lines  I have a couple of different thoughts. I do wish they were wider especially on a few specific holes (17 jumps out). That being said, I do think that the rough in the current set up prevents a lot of balls from getting into the gunsch for the normal member. The rough is generally kept pretty short (not hack it out rough at all) so it is extraordinarily playable.

As for the Chute par 3, I don't like it either. I have heard that there has been some talk of removing at least one of the trees which I support.

Hope this post doesn't make you feel pilloried .

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not all of the fairways are narrow. But many are.

Agreed

And not every hole is hemmed in by the gunsch, but many are.

Agreed, and once you're in it, unless you take an unplayable, you're unlikely to get out, resulting in an "X" on a hole.
It's a round ruiner.

The good thing about the gunsch is that it's easy to find a ball. Somebody else's!

Agreed

But the penal nature of the course by now is not just a matter of setup; it seems to be the culture of the place.

Thoroughly agree.
And, this isn't restricted to PD.  You find it at Oakmont, PV and other terrific golf courses that develop a culture, a mind set, over the years.
I call it the golf equivalent of the "Red Badge of Courage".  Pride in the demonic golf gods.
And, it's so incredibly hard to change that culture, even if it's an out of place iconic tree or other feature.
It becomes imbedded in the culture.

I totally understand that the membership of a classic course like PD might gravitate slowly but surely to making the course tougher in ways that seem inimical to gca purists.
They want the course to be relevant to top flight competition.

It's a matter of "Golf Pride", in not wanting golfers to destroy par, as if that somehow detracts from the quality of the course as it relates to the membership.

It's really a by-product of the failure to rein in the I&B (distance)

Happens all the time, even at a shrine like Merion.

It's not limited to select courses, it's systemic, universal.

I'll go ahead and apologize to the PD members who bleat that the fairways aren't narrow and the gunsch is sort of out of play.

They're not independent observers, they're inherently biased and isolated.  They're defenders of their club's policies and as such they're naturally defensive when it comes to these subjects.

I apologize, because I love the place despite its perceived shortcomings.

I think it's a fabulous golf course, one you can play every day and not tire of it, but remember, without constructive criticism, progress is impossible.

PD member here ready to attack.

Gunsch is by far the biggest shortfall of the course and yes many of the members look at it as a badge of honor.

That's the misguided culture.

I do not, as I think it keeps it out of the very top echelon of courses.

Perhaps, as a round ruiner.

I played with a fellow in a competition who hit his drive into the right gunk on # 17.
I mumbled, loud enough for all to hear, that if it was me, I'd go back to the tee.
Unfortunately, he failed to do so, flailed away, only hitting the ball a few feet, and now he couldn't return to the tee.
He finished the hole with a double digit score and his drive wasn't that errant.
It's clearly a round ruiner and excessive

As for the rough lines  I have a couple of different thoughts. I do wish they were wider especially on a few specific holes (17 jumps out).
Agree


That being said, I do think that the rough in the current set up prevents a lot of balls from getting into the gunsch for the normal member.
ONLY if their ball is running along the ground.
Balls with trajectory will end up in the gunk if hit in that direction.

The rough is generally kept pretty short (not hack it out rough at all) so it is extraordinarily playable.

As for the Chute par 3, I don't like it either. I have heard that there has been some talk of removing at least one of the trees which I support.
Great, get more vocal 

Hope this post doesn't make you feel pilloried .

It's a common sense post.

[Sean Leary]

Pat,

The rough and gunsch are separate things and issues. There are a lot of older members at PD ( a couple even older than you) and they don't hit the ball very high. I am just saying that one positive is that the rough in its current setup prevents some ball from getting into the gunsch.

Beyond a badge of honor, there are financial restrictions with maintaining the gunsch as well.

[Sean Leary]

Pat,

Serious question.  Have you been back to PD since you played it in the US Midam? I am curious as to the thickness of the gunsch then versus now, and if current state of fertilizing has affected that part of the course. Older pictures seem to suggest that it wasn't quite as dense many years ago.

[Andrew Buck]

The round ruining nature of gulch can certainly be frustrating.  I'm actually surprised there weren't more extremely high numbers as a result of wayward drives this week.  I do know one of the guys on Illinois made a 10 in the first round and was 1 under for the rest of the event.

Also, does anyone know why Alex Burge of Illinois was DQ'd?  I saw a tweet that he took a lost ball, but a competitor found it and didn't tell him until after the round.  Can't believe that is true and someone would knowingly do that.

[Sean Leary]

The round ruining nature of gulch can certainly be frustrating.  I'm actually surprised there weren't more extremely high numbers as a result of wayward drives this week.  I do know one of the guys on Illinois made a 10 in the first round and was 1 under for the rest of the event.

Also, does anyone know why Alex Burge of Illinois was DQ'd?  I saw a tweet that he took a lost ball, but a competitor found it and didn't tell him until after the round.  Can't believe that is true and someone would knowingly do that.

No wind is why there were so few big numbers. Also having spotters helps as well.

I have about 75 rounds played there. Maybe 3 of those under wind conditions that they had this weekend.

[Andrew Buck]

The round ruining nature of gulch can certainly be frustrating.  I'm actually surprised there weren't more extremely high numbers as a result of wayward drives this week.  I do know one of the guys on Illinois made a 10 in the first round and was 1 under for the rest of the event.

Also, does anyone know why Alex Burge of Illinois was DQ'd?  I saw a tweet that he took a lost ball, but a competitor found it and didn't tell him until after the round.  Can't believe that is true and someone would knowingly do that.

No wind is why there were so few big numbers. Also having spotters helps as well.

I have about 75 rounds played there. Maybe 3 of those under wind conditions that they had this weekend.

And even with perfect conditions, and dozens of kids that can "go low" the course more than held up.  Heck, a tournament at yale yielded -33 earlier this year.  Only a few rounds under 65, seems plenty tough to me.

[Sean Leary]

The round ruining nature of gulch can certainly be frustrating.  I'm actually surprised there weren't more extremely high numbers as a result of wayward drives this week.  I do know one of the guys on Illinois made a 10 in the first round and was 1 under for the rest of the event.

Also, does anyone know why Alex Burge of Illinois was DQ'd?  I saw a tweet that he took a lost ball, but a competitor found it and didn't tell him until after the round.  Can't believe that is true and someone would knowingly do that.

No wind is why there were so few big numbers. Also having spotters helps as well.

I have about 75 rounds played there. Maybe 3 of those under wind conditions that they had this weekend.

And even with perfect conditions, and dozens of kids that can "go low" the course more than held up.  Heck, a tournament at yale yielded -33 earlier this year.  Only a few rounds under 65, seems plenty tough to me.

I think under normal conditions even par wins and there are more high scores overall.

Chris Cupit, were the tees up a bit this weekend? Obviously 10 was. I am wondering about 13 for example.

[Terry Lavin]

I've been pilloried!  Ma, help me!!!

[William_G]

no doubt the greens are slower than normal with the deluges they've had, makes the scoring receptive

I remember the fairways as generous and lush, while the greens were firm and fast requiring a bump and run for most approaches

the greens are fantastic!

[David Kelly]

Older pictures seem to suggest that it wasn't quite as dense many years ago.

I've seen pictures from the 1960s where the whole expanse of gunch between 8 and 9 was only ankle deep.

[ward peyronnin]

The Stanford pushcart use began when Cam Wilson had some back problems last year and Coach Ray suggested the move to them.

The other players liked the idea and they are winning. How great to see the No 1 AM IN THE WORLD AND THE ncaa CHAMPION pusshin trolleys