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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« on: May 25, 2014, 09:47:28 PM »
This game is simple. The person above you posts an architecturally relevant noun. You respond by deeming it overrated, underrated, or properly rated. Then name a noun of your own for the next person to evaluate.

I'll name the first:

The greens at Pebble Beach
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Cody Carroll

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2014, 09:59:38 PM »
Properly rated. I have never played, but from what I seem they are interesting, but I am not a huge fan of tiny greens.

Crowned greens

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 10:19:17 PM »
Potentially great in a Master's hands, a la 16 at Ravisloe, but generally overrated.

Water on Par 3's, e.g. Medinah #3.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 10:21:52 PM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Connolly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2014, 12:49:08 AM »
Overrated. Too penal. Most make a double with a bad swing. And i think you meant medinah #3, 2nd hole.

Driveable par 4.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2014, 12:57:01 AM »
They are being used more and more and starting to become overrated. The drivable holes take away from what could possibly be an interesting/strategic drive and pitch hole, which seem to be increasingly rare nowadays.

Brutally difficult finishing hole
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2014, 03:59:40 AM »
Over rated.   Great finishing holes allow for birdies and bogeys.

Center line bunkers.

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2014, 05:08:15 AM »
Properly rated for pros if there is sufficient width on either side and sufficient difference to each side for their to be a difference.  For average golfers probably overrated as we tend to just drive straight at em safe in the knowledge that straight is the last place the ball is likely to go.  Becoming a little too common.

Front to back sloping greens.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2014, 06:18:48 AM »
Underrated.  Not nearly enough of 'em IMO.  I love holes where the correct miss is long, probably cause they're so rare these days.

The Biarritz Template
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 06:28:13 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2014, 08:55:32 AM »
Firm
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2014, 08:55:45 AM »
Fast
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2014, 10:07:03 AM »
Underrated.  Not nearly enough of 'em IMO.  I love holes where the correct miss is long, probably cause they're so rare these days.

The Biarritz Template

Not sure they really work all that well. (Its so hard to hit a 200 yard shot that straight for most golfers)  But just the swale is so awesome visually.

Robert Trent Jones


Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2014, 11:08:52 AM »
Firm: underrated.... it seems all too common for soft/green conditions (at least at many American courses)
Fast: properly rated; however, it is becoming overrated. I, and most people, enjoy faster conditions, but the speed should not compromise the intent of the architect. This seems to be a growing problem with the softening of contours nowadays.

Blind approach shots
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2014, 11:50:30 AM »
Firm: underrated.... it seems all too common for soft/green conditions (at least at many American courses)
Fast: properly rated; however, it is becoming overrated. I, and most people, enjoy faster conditions, but the speed should not compromise the intent of the architect. This seems to be a growing problem with the softening of contours nowadays.

Blind approach shots

agreed
 firm under rated -often in an attempt to get too much of the fast.

Fast over rated-first greens, now fairways.
People need grass to play off, and it is becoming increasingly a rare commodity at the more expensive clubs.
and as you say the greens issue
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

AKikuchi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2014, 12:27:45 PM »

Robert Trent Jones


In the general golfing public, overrated. On GCA, underrated. I have a feeling that will be the case for many of these answers.

forced carries

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2014, 12:50:50 PM »
Forced carries - Underrated. Too much time is spent discussing how intimidating they are for high handicappers. Not enough time is spent discussing the satisfaction that high handicappers feel when they watch a good shot sail to safety on the other side. I've discussed this exact topic with many high handicappers and they generally enjoy forced carries provided they aren't too long to comfortably clear.

Renaissance Design
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2014, 02:59:21 PM »
Forced carries - Underrated. Too much time is spent discussing how intimidating they are for high handicappers. Not enough time is spent discussing the satisfaction that high handicappers feel when they watch a good shot sail to safety on the other side. I've discussed this exact topic with many high handicappers and they generally enjoy forced carries provided they aren't too long to comfortably clear.

Renaissance Design

On this site?  Properly rated (dare I whisper "slightly overrated?"...naw).  General golfing public?  Vastly underrated...still.  Whenever I run into a Denverite on a course up here in the mountains I ask if they've been to CommonGround.  Al large percentage have not, and have never heard of it.  Meanwhile they are paying exorbitant fees up here to play inferior courses with CG and Riverdale Dunes (Dye) down there.  I don't get it. 




Template holes

« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 03:02:34 PM by Tom Bacsanyi »
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2014, 06:55:56 AM »
Template holes - overrated, here anyway.  They are oversimplifications of design that make it easy for someone with a little knowledge of golf architecture to pretend that he has a lot more.  That includes many architects, who deploy them for the same reason -- because they make the members feel "enlightened" and arguments about the merits of the design are neutered.  You're not allowed to criticize template holes, even on the grounds that they are unoriginal.

Tom Simpson


(P.S. to Jason:  if a forced carry is not too long for the average player to comfortably clear, then what is the merit of it?)

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2014, 09:16:21 AM »
Underrated. I have not played any of his courses, but I am intrigued.




//RTJ's redesigns
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 09:50:59 AM by Jim Franklin »
Mr Hurricane

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2014, 09:33:05 AM »

RTJ was just answered a few comments ago...I think this is correct:


Robert Trent Jones


In the general golfing public, overrated. On GCA, underrated. I have a feeling that will be the case for many of these answers.

forced carries






Heathland Courses - I would actually say properly rated.  I would love to play several of them, but are they that much better than many other classic  designs?


Punchbowl Greens
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 09:35:10 AM by Josh Tarble »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2014, 09:39:26 AM »
(P.S. to Jason:  if a forced carry is not too long for the average player to comfortably clear, then what is the merit of it?)

I don't like forced carries that ask "Are you capable of hitting it this far?" If the answer is "No," then the round ends. That sucks.

I do, however, find that virtually all high handicappers I talk with enjoy the occasional forced carry that, while manageable with a good shot, still stirs some nervousness in their stomach as they stand over the ball. High handicappers hit a lot of shanked, topped, fat, and generally weak shots. They also rarely stuff approaches tight and rattle off highlight-reel shots. As a result, watching a solid hit fly over 115 yards of water and safely to the fairway on the other side is often one of the most satisfying moments they experience on a course. The merit of the feature is the extra dose of nervousness and excitement it adds for the player standing over the ball, along with the upside of feeling the satisfaction of meeting the challenge. "Short enough to comfortably clear" with a good shot doesn't preclude the high handicapper from feeling uncomfortable before he hits it.

Punchbowl Greens

Overrated. They stink.

16 at Cypress Point.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2014, 09:52:57 AM »
16th at Cypress Point.   

Properly rated I'd say, it's one of the iconic holes in golf.  Played it twice, never finished the hole.  Both times hit two drives that a- l-m-o-s-t made it across.  One actually made it across but on the beach beyond.  Both times I looked around for my caddy and both times he was halfway around the cove so I was done.   :P

Links courses

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2014, 10:53:23 AM »
Links courses

I will argue underated.  The combination of wind, firm turf and weather that is crisp yet comfortable is hard to beat. 

I am less sure about the next topic:

Wind

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2014, 10:56:44 AM »
I'd say wind is underrated if it's the 1-3 club variety.  If it's blowing a steady 30+ mph it's overrated. 

Half Par Holes
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2014, 10:59:13 AM »
I'd say wind is underrated if it's the 1-3 club variety.  If it's blowing a steady 30+ mph it's overrated.  

Half Par Holes

Properly rated - half under par holes are overrated because everyone likes a birdie.  half over par holes are underrated for the opposite reason.  Hence the properly rated.


Chicago as a golf town.

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The overrated, underrated, or properly rated game
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2014, 11:25:50 AM »
I'd say wind is underrated if it's the 1-3 club variety.  If it's blowing a steady 30+ mph it's overrated.  

Half Par Holes

Properly rated - half under par holes are overrated because everyone likes a birdie.  half over par holes are underrated for the opposite reason.  Hence the properly rated.


Chicago as a golf town.

Underrated. It is one of my favorite cities in the world for golf, however, many people over look its greatness.

The Old Course

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