[RJ_Daley]

Glad to see JU giving some love to the straight away shortish par 5, 5th.  Sometimes I think our recounts of Lawsonia overlook the 5th, which is a hole I've always found exciting to play.

As I had mentioned in an earlier post, there are times de-treeing is not the best course of action, and any of the trees on 5 would not be a good choice to be removed, in  my opinion.

[Jud_T]

RJ,

It'd be interesting to see what plantings were on 5 back in the day.  Paging Dan Moore...

P.S.  Maxincuckee?!!

[Niall C]

Well done on the tree clearing however does it not just highlight the ugly cart paths ? If cart paths are a necessary evil, and I'm not saying they are, but if they are is there not a trade off to be made for the judicious use of trees to help screen them from view ? Or perhaps there is another way they could be hidden ?

Niall

[RJ_Daley]

Jud, Is it fair to say the very stately old oaks that somewhat frame the tee shot off the 5th, with a small grove over on the left near 2 tee, and a few down the right going down the drive hill and giving a cue away from OB on the road, and the second shot far right along the road;  were all mere saplingss in 1928-30s when the course was made?   But,  isn't it also fair to say there were a number of native to that land parcel old growth hardwoods that L&M worked some of the routing around, that have died off, storm damaged, or disease has taken?  Could the early course maintenance crews have placed oak and maple hardwoods in areas near where some key old growth trees were lost over the decades, and prior to the 50s-60s where thw Lawsonia course overseers followed the trend of that era with massive plantings of coniferous plantings to line hole corridors? 

I don't know the answers, but I think 50s-60s plantings mentality could indicate the administrators of Lawsonia may have been likely to plant replacements from the course's beginnings. 

[Brent Carlson]

Thanks for the photos Dan.  The course was SO good before.  I can only imagine how good it is now.   Definitely a can't miss in Wisconsin.   A middle class Shinny.

[Phil McDade]

Bunker to the left of the famous "boxcar" par 3 7th hole now restored:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5X9GYxpcoc

[JNagle]

Phil -

Question is, did bunkers previously exist left of the 7th hole.  Photos do not show features to the left of right.  This appears to have been a plateau green without hazards. 

[Phil McDade]

Phil -

Question is, did bunkers previously exist left of the 7th hole.  Photos do not show features to the left of right.  This appears to have been a plateau green without hazards. 

Dan Moore's definitive thread on Lawsonia: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37022.0.html suggests strongly it was either intended to be a bunker, or once was and had been grassed over. The folks running Lawsonia have Langford's original plans, I believe.

[PCCraig]

The new (old?) bunker on #7 makes it a really hard hole as there is literally no place to miss now and that bunker shot is really tough.

[Russ Arbuthnot]

The new (old?) bunker on #7 makes it a really hard hole as there is literally no place to miss now and that bunker shot is really tough.

Interesting, because that's almost the exact opposite of what the gentlemen in the linked video say (which was surprising).

(Full disclosure: I have not played Lawsonia, but look forward to playing there someday in the future.)

[Phil McDade]

Russ:

In fairness, that can be one intimidating tee shot. It has an all-or-nothing quality to it; you really have to see it to believe how much that green is raised up around its surrounds. Long, short, and right are just plain death; you're a good 10-15 feet below the green surface, and you have absolutely no sense of how hard or where to hit the recovery pitch. In the right wind, going left there is something of a bail out; I almost always favored the left side there, because anything else scares the daylights out of me. Not that left was easy an recovery, but my sense is that those guys in the video took the view of the pretty accomplished player, for whom a sand shot to a green above is not that intimidating.

[Jason Thurman]

Phil, do you expect the hole to play tougher now than before?

One of the things I've noticed about those deep Langford and Moreau bunkers is that they're actually quite forgiving for a poor sand player while being deep enough to make it hard for a good player to judge his shot. A bladed ball often hits the grass face and rides up , launching into the air at the top and landing softly enough to stay on the green even with the overspin it carries. That can be a nice perk for a weak sand player.

I'm not a good bunker player, but I still prefer the sand to hardpan when I'm facing a short pitch to a severely elevated green. From where that bunker appears to be based on the video, I'm betting it's still 8 feet or so below the putting surface. That's a pretty scary shot from the thin turf that I remember from that left side.

I wish the video had shown the new visual from the tee a little more clearly. I suspect the hole looks quite a bit scarier now, but I also think it might play just a bit easier.

[Phil McDade]

Phil, do you expect the hole to play tougher now than before?

One of the things I've noticed about those deep Langford and Moreau bunkers is that they're actually quite forgiving for a poor sand player while being deep enough to make it hard for a good player to judge his shot. A bladed ball often hits the grass face and rides up , launching into the air at the top and landing softly enough to stay on the green even with the overspin it carries. That can be a nice perk for a weak sand player.

I'm not a good bunker player, but I still prefer the sand to hardpan when I'm facing a short pitch to a severely elevated green. From where that bunker appears to be based on the video, I'm betting it's still 8 feet or so below the putting surface. That's a pretty scary shot from the thin turf that I remember from that left side.

I wish the video had shown the new visual from the tee a little more clearly. I suspect the hole looks quite a bit scarier now, but I also think it might play just a bit easier.

Jason:

That's a good question -- and I've always been of the view that for most players (those beyond a low single-digit handicap, say) visual intimidation can often play a big role in how one approaches a particular shot, and now the 7th strikes me as more visually intimidating for most players. One thing I always have to remind myself when on that tee -- this is a neat visual trick that Langford I'm sure understood, and you see in architects like Dye -- is that the green is larger than it appears. When trouble completely encircles a green, as is the case with this hole, I've always thought it "shrinks" the target in the mind's eye. (I proved this once when I semi-skulled a 7-iron there, and thought -- that's in the woods. It hit the front edge of the green, and rolled all the way to the back edge. Two putt for par when I thought I was re-loading. )

I suppose time will tell;  I too tend to agree about some -- not all! -- of Lawsonia's bunkers and looking more intimidating than they play.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

I like the addition but I'm not sure it adds to the pucker factor on the tee for anyone other than those who have real trouble out of the sand.  If anything it gives you a target to aim at away from the trouble and fade or draw your ball off of.  Furthermore it may reduce the visual perspective disorientation.

[Phil McDade]

Phil,

I like the addition but I'm not sure it adds to the pucker factor on the tee for anyone other than those who have real trouble out of the sand.  If anything it gives you a target to aim at away from the trouble and fade or draw your ball off of.  Furthermore it may reduce the visual perspective disorientation.

Jud:

That's a good point -- sort of like how trees lining each side of a fairway help "frame" the shot whereas wide-open spaces add to uncertainty.

[Jason Thurman]

Phil,

I like the addition but I'm not sure it adds to the pucker factor on the tee for anyone other than those who have real trouble out of the sand.  If anything it gives you a target to aim at away from the trouble and fade or draw your ball off of.  Furthermore it may reduce the visual perspective disorientation.

Jud:

That's a good point -- sort of like how trees lining each side of a fairway help "frame" the shot whereas wide-open spaces add to uncertainty.

Going back to my previous post, that framing "comfort" is part of what I also see in those deep L&M bunkers. Most of my bunker shots are hit from deep L&M-style bunkers, including the 8 foot deep practice bunker at Clovernook which was built a few years ago but reflects Moreau's shaping style. One of the things I've noticed is that when I climb into one of our deeper bunkers and can't see my target, my goal changes from trying to get the ball close to just trying to get it out and on the green. The result is that the deep bunkers actually INCREASE the margin of error for a bunker shot that I would be happy with, since I'm pretty happy to be within 20 feet instead of 20 inches.

I know there are some people who are just absolutely awful from sand. I was one of them for a long time and have bladed bunker shots back and forth across the fourth green at Lawsonia on three consecutive swings on at least one embarrassing occasion. But for anyone who occasionally practices a bunker shot, I think that bunker on the seventh will be far preferable to the hardpan thin lies that I remember from that groove down the face of the left front of the green.

I do hope to get back up to Lawsonia soon and see the new work. It's probably too far for a greens committee field trip, but I'd be curious to see their reactions. Among other things, Lawsonia may still have the best set of par 3s of any course I've played and I suspect the work on 7 will only improve how highly I hold those five holes.

[Nigel Islam]

Phil,

I like the addition but I'm not sure it adds to the pucker factor on the tee for anyone other than those who have real trouble out of the sand.  If anything it gives you a target to aim at away from the trouble and fade or draw your ball off of.  Furthermore it may reduce the visual perspective disorientation.

Jud:

That's a good point -- sort of like how trees lining each side of a fairway help "frame" the shot whereas wide-open spaces add to uncertainty.

Going back to my previous post, that framing "comfort" is part of what I also see in those deep L&M bunkers. Most of my bunker shots are hit from deep L&M-style bunkers, including the 8 foot deep practice bunker at Clovernook which was built a few years ago but reflects Moreau's shaping style. One of the things I've noticed is that when I climb into one of our deeper bunkers and can't see my target, my goal changes from trying to get the ball close to just trying to get it out and on the green. The result is that the deep bunkers actually INCREASE the margin of error for a bunker shot that I would be happy with, since I'm pretty happy to be within 20 feet instead of 20 inches.

I know there are some people who are just absolutely awful from sand. I was one of them for a long time and have bladed bunker shots back and forth across the fourth green at Lawsonia on three consecutive swings on at least one embarrassing occasion. But for anyone who occasionally practices a bunker shot, I think that bunker on the seventh will be far preferable to the hardpan thin lies that I remember from that groove down the face of the left front of the green.

I do hope to get back up to Lawsonia soon and see the new work. It's probably too far for a greens committee field trip, but I'd be curious to see their reactions. Among other things, Lawsonia may still have the best set of par 3s of any course I've played and I suspect the work on 7 will only improve how highly I hold those five holes.

Having been left on 7 when I played it, I agree with Jason that a bunker would have been an easier shot just simply because of the scruffy lie. It still upsets me that I doubled that hole. I'm not sure they are the best set of par 3s I have played, but they are definitely up there.

[Dan Moore]

The 1937 aerial I have clearly shows a bunker in that position.  You could see the depression on the ground where it used to be in the last photo in my original thread Phil mentioned.  Given the difficulty of missing short or right this seems like a good balanced approach to the hole.

Just as important is the fact they took out a series of unoriginal trees to the left and short of the green which have really opened up the hole and improved that green as well. 

I hope some of you can make it on July 19th for the dedication of Langford's Pub.  I'll be there Friday to Sunday if anyone wants to play.

Cheers!!

[BShannon]

Just finished playing Lawsonia Links for the first time - what a magnificent place!

Playing as firm/fast as anything I've seen. Can't imagine how difficult this course would play on a windy day.

Congrats to Oliphant on a job well done so far. This makes me even more excited for Sand Valley.

Incredible value aside, this course stacks up against any Wisconsin public for me and I would certainly choose it over Erin Hills (although I haven't played EH in 2 years)

Best of luck to those playing in the event.

[Cliff Hamm]

Played Lawsonia on Monday.  Great shape.  But firm and fast??? Wisconsin has had too much rain. Local farms driving in had much standing water.  On a few occasions mud on the ball.  Clearly not firm and fast, but not the supers fault.  Simply nature with too much moisture.  As a matter of fact they had seeded the hillside behind 14 and the seed washed away.

[Jon Heise]

That looks wonderful.  Can't believe I have not made the trip yet...

[Derek_Duncan]

I love Lawsonia but the trees around 13 green and 14 never bothered me. I understand those holes were bare when the course opened, but the pines didn't effect the way the course plays--I have no problem when a course that is largely open takes a foray into a wooded section.

The deforestation of those two holes in particular seems a little extreme. Were there agronomic issues behind it or was it purely for restorative aesthetics?

[Rees Milikin]

Made my first trip to Lawsonia yesterday and loved it!  The views into & from #13 & #14 were great and the wind was definitely playing a factor on #14, which I can imagine wasn't much of a factor before the trees were removed.  The course was a little soft due to rain the day before, but by late afternoon (back 9) it was playing faster.  The condition & atmosphere of the course were great, and I will definitely be making trips back.  Thanks to GCA for shining light upon such a great & affordable course, otherwise I and many others would be missing out.

[Doug Siebert]

I love Lawsonia but the trees around 13 green and 14 never bothered me. I understand those holes were bare when the course opened, but the pines didn't effect the way the course plays--I have no problem when a course that is largely open takes a foray into a wooded section.

The deforestation of those two holes in particular seems a little extreme. Were there agronomic issues behind it or was it purely for restorative aesthetics?

I didn't mind most of the pines, but the ones overhanging the 14th tee (the par 3) drove me nuts - I'd have to club down and hit 3/4 shot to avoid hitting the damn things from the back tees, especially when they were on the left side of the teebox!

I kind of liked the ones behind the green, they provided a nice backdrop and didn't affect play in any way.

[Dan Moore]

Derek,

The trees were removed because of serious turf issues on both the 13th and 14th greens.  Judging by a visit over the 4th those issues will soon be a thing of the past.  The original 13th and 14th greens were carved out the trees originally but judging by old photos those trees were not nearly as many or as dense as what was there by 2012-13.  The 14th in recent years was really narrow.  Aesthetically the change is really an improvement.  And the tree removal between 11 tee and 13 green will enable a new back tee to be built on 11 about 50 yards farther back which would bring the big right hand fairway bunker back in play for younger long hitting players.   

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