Dog Legs

[Jeff_Brauer]

Reading more of the RTJ bio last night, it seems much of the controversy surrounding his work stems from dislike of dogleg holes. (Hazeltine for one, RTJII at Poppy Hills for another)

Just throwing it out there, since I don't recall any specific discussion about doglegs in general (?) over the years for a free form discussion:

How many is too many?  How sharp is too sharp?

Faves?  Hates? 

What is too wooded, what is too open to use a DL?

Best hole types/round position to use? Worst? (other than par 3's.....)

[Alex Miller]

RE: RTJ, It's more difficult to put flanking fairway bunkers on both sides of the fairway when the hole doglegs. Maybe that's why?  

[Jason Topp]

Hazeltine's 10th is one of my favorite sharp doglegs when I play from the tee that works best for me.  If you challenge the left side, you greatly shorten the downhill approach.  If you bailout right, the approach is quite long, blind and dramatic with water pinching in on the left side.  The hole also demonstrates the limitations of that type of hole.  If I play it from the back tee I have 280 to the corner which means my 2nd will automatically be over trees and most likely a bailout.  Shorter is more interesting.

The 6th is one of my favorite holes in the twin cities. It has a softer dogleg, plays through trees and one has a variety of choices from a 200 yard layup leaving 180 yards to an undulating green protected by water on the left to a partial wedge that results from hooking the ball around the corner. 

Aerial photos in this tour: http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/hazeltinengc/aerial.htm#
   
As a general rule, I like doglegs that are a bit shorter and provide a safe option leaving a long approach and an aggressive option leaving a short approach.  I think it is difficult to accomplish this on a real sharp dogleg. 

[Neil Davis]

What do people think about bunkers placed on the far/through side of a dog leg?

[Carl Johnson]

What do people think about bunkers placed on the far/through side of a dog leg?

In general, poor design.  However, may be useful in appropriate cases.  One I can think of would be to "save" balls that might otherwise end up in a much worse situation - water, deep ravine.  I'll be playing at a course this weekend that has such bunkers that stop balls hit too deep from going into water.  The course is daily fee and what one could call a "holiday course" with lots of play from less-skilled players (such as myself).  I suppose other options, such as big mounding might work, but at this particular course I have no problem with these bunkers.  On the other hand, the same course has bunkers on the outside of two doglegs that serve no such purpose.  Bad bunkers.  A much better design on these holes, IMO, would be to put the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg.  Several such bunkers have been used on other holes on this course for strategic purposes.  Interestingly, another inside bunker is used to stop balls from going into water.   Frederic W. Hawtree, golf architect.

On the general subject, I dislike sharp doglegs that present difficulties keeping a ball hit "too long" in play in the fairway.  I'd prefer greater latitude, but with penalty of being in a poorer postion to approach the green.

[Jim Hoak]

Personally, I love cross-bunkers as a way of creating/protecting a dog-leg.  But too many cross-bunkers have been removed in redos to accommodate poorer players who don't like the carry.

[Thomas Dai]

A favourite - 360yd par-4 11th at Carne.

Very raised tee, sea in the far distance, drive between two huge rugged dunes, land on a downslope, 'saving' bunker on the left if you go too far, turn right about 70 degrees and play up through a swale to a raised green. Wonderful hole IMO. Although some don't think much of it, I also like the next hole, the short dog-leg left 12th to a very raised green, but then again I'm a biased being a big fan of Carne.

I can't locate my photos of the 11th hole. Can someone else post some?

Honorable mention - 370 yd par-4 13th at Pyle and Kenfig.

Almost a double dog-leg. Slightly raised tee, dog-legs right at driving distance, ridge down left side, dunes to the right, left half of angled green half 'covered' by small dune at front corner on left side. Very nice indeed.

atb

[Paul Gray]

The only rule is that there are no rules.

The one exception I'd suggest might be the sharp dogleg surrounded by trees which makes the second shot for shorter players nothing but a 50-60 yard flick.

[Brett Wiesley]

I generally think 90 degree doglegs are not great holes.  They only way they work, is if the hole is more of a risk/reward cape hole, with the advantage to those who challenge the hazard.  Thus not punishing those who may not be long, with blocked out shot by trees.

[Tom_Doak]

I generally think 90 degree doglegs are not great holes.  They only way they work, is if the hole is more of a risk/reward cape hole, with the advantage to those who challenge the hazard.  Thus not punishing those who may not be long, with blocked out shot by trees.

The other way is when the fairway doesn't dogleg until PAST the normal player's landing area, so the idea is to hug the inside of the fairway and then play the second shot diagonally over the trouble.  But you rarely see such a hole.

I personally don't like the typical dogleg that starts out straight off the tee and then makes a sharp bend.  I much prefer it when the hole starts from left or right of center and then keeps moving that direction.  The latter looks and feels more natural; the former looks like a "dog leg".

[Brett Wiesley]

Tom,

We have a terrible hole at my club, par 5 dog right.  90 degrees after the tee shot.  From the back tees, I cannot get past the tree line usually.  You then have to play to the left side of fairway in order to be back far enough from the trees to clear them.  Usual club selection if not played perfectly:  Driver, PW/9i, 8/9i.  I find it awkward to play longer 3rd shot than the second.  There are lots of ideas to fix this...for another time.

Another poor hole is one with a diagonal stream/hazard in the landing zone.  We also have this poor hole.  Water from left to right, at approximately 225 off tee across fairway ending at 325, with the far neck of the fairway 10 yards wide.  Usual play is to lay back at 225 off tee, then 200 yards to green, then over a pond short of the green.  Double hazard, not my fave.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Generally, I dislike 90 degree doglegs, but Musgrove Mill has a gem.  It doglegs left.  You hit from a very elevated tee to a huge landing area.  There is marsh on the right but doesn't really come I to play.  The green slopes from left to right and is fronted by a serpentine bunker.  Hitting the ball far enough to have a clear shot to the green is not a problem. Position off the tee is essential. It helps to hug the left side of the fairway, because a short iron has the best chance of getting close to the hole. Hit it down the left side of the fairway and it is a pitching wedge.  Hit it far right and you have 6 iron.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have measured Cape Holes, and for my money, the best dogleg angle is between 20-30 degrees, no more.  Some would argue for 45 deg., but one thing to recall is that any angle in the field looks far greater than how it is actually drawn on plan.  The 60-90 degree seems to set up for an alternate fw carry shot instead.

My mentors had a pithy saying - "We only avoid sharp doglegs under two conditions - where there  are trees and where there aren't."  However, I have designed a few I really like, such as Tangleridge 14, which has a sharp DL, water on the inside all the way down and a wide FW.  Basically, challenge the water and you can pick up 2-3 clubs vs. playing to the far side to take the water out of play completely, and it is about a 7 to 4 iron difference.  Going from mid to long iron is enough penalty to make you think about not playing too safe off the tee.

However, generally, I agree and the most graceful doglegs are gentle, and it doesn't take a lot of angle to set up the strategy.  Under 10 deg. or so and you can still see the green, or at least its outside flanking bunkers, which makes for a pretty hole.  Get closer to 20 deg., and you have a real dogleg look.

Next question, what are your favorite double dog leg par 5 holes? 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I personally don't like the typical dogleg that starts out straight off the tee and then makes a sharp bend.  I much prefer it when the hole starts from left or right of center and then keeps moving that direction.  The latter looks and feels more natural; the former looks like a "dog leg".

This is essentially my view also. Classic style doglegs are always sweeping rather than sharp and I too prefer the sweep to start off-centre. I always associate sharp doglegs more with target golf which often come about because architects draw them around a 250m turning point.

[Sean_A]

I am fond of leggers which leave the green in view as a temptation.  I also like leggers which make you earn a view of the green so log as its not trees which are the block.  Don't care much for sharpish leggers, but there are some which are due respect - such as Hoylake's 1st.  St Enodoc's 10th too.  Another goodun' is North Berwick's Perfection.  More or less the unusual ones I will give a pass.

Ciao

[Brett Wiesley]

Jeff, as for double dog leg par 5's there are many out there, common strategy.  My favorite may be Bethpage Black #4.  Tack it up and around the bunkers in double dog leg, or give it a go and challenge the deep green fronting bunkers.  Great hole!

[Pete_Pittock]

One feature I found distasteful was a bunker on the inside of a dog leg par five around a lake.  Big hitters could carry the lake left of the bunker. With my capabilities I had to avoid both and couldn't reach the par 5 with a drive and two fairway woods because I had to add about 40 yards to the hole by playing around the *%#@t.

[Pete_Pittock]

Since double dog legs are mentioned I have played two that NLE.
One, the opening hole at Black Butte-Glaze Meadow (OR) has been discussed with layups on the two opening shots.
The other, I think the eighth, at Mountain High near Bend, Oregon required about a 270 yard drive to the first turn point. Unless you could hit over 60-80' tall ponderosa pine on both sides of the fairway, you were left with a wedge to the second turn point.

[Mark Chaplin]

A poor example is the 17th at New Zealand, 90 degree dog leg around 220 from the tee no opportunity to carry the corner in R/R situation. Hole is saved by a very good green complex, probably the best on the course.

[Sean_A]

Chappers, yes, don't care for the drive, but all the other shots make it a good hole despite the dogleg.  Green site and approach is way too good to be a bad hole.  I am pretty sure the left side of the hole is not NZ property so....we are out of luck.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Is it necessary to have 2 challenging full-shots to be a quality dog-leg par-4 or is 1 challenging full-shot sufficient?

atb

[John Percival]

A 90 dog is a Cape gone wrong.
Just soften the damn angle.
Treed - too targety
Open - too easy for bombers (wide fwy)
But the worst is the hole that has something inside the corner...another hole/green, or houses, road, etc