[Gib_Papazian]

Having an off-line conversation with a Treehouse dweller in the U.K., we were discussing the particulars of County Down and my assertion the club might be better off reversing the nines. Starting out (or even finishing) with a par-3 is not unprecedented - Lytham comes immediately to mind. While the back side of RCD is very good (especially with the improvement on #16), it can be argued the front nine is the most outstanding sequence of holes in Europe - if not the world.

So, why not finish with the Mountains of Mourne as a backdrop? If one can get past the odd start, is it not better to hold off for a truly boffo, full blast finish? Augusta switched their nines many years ago with dramatic results.

Assuming two loops of nine holes returning to the clubhouse, what other courses would benefit from such a reversal? Incline Village Championship Course reversed the nines five years ago and the general flow of the layout was enhanced.

Shinnecock Hills? I know it seems unthinkable, but NGLA's original clubhouse was behind the 9th green. How would NGLA play if #10 suddenly became #1? Does starting with two short par-4's seem odd compared with a strong start on the other side of the property?

Would Bandon (Kidd's orginal) flow better if the nines were reversed? How about Winged Foot East? San Francisco GC? Maybe start out staring down the Devil's Asshole right off the bat at PV? The most obvious one is Spyglass - and why they have never thought of that is a mystery.

Any others? Comments?        

[Kevin_Reilly]

San Francisco is an interesting choice, moving outstanding holes like 2, 3, 6 and 7 to the final nine.  Two out of the first four holes on the reversed course would be par 3's, which normally would be a show stopper for pace of play considerations, but (of course) at SF that is not a problem. 

Reversing the nines would present a departure from the "handshake" opener that the first hole represents...the current 10th of course would be a more challenging start to the round than the current first.

[Matthew Petersen]

I can't imagine Spyglass has "never thought of it," but it seems the flow would be much more awkward if you spent nine holes in the forest, then went out to the dunes for five holes, and then had to finish back in the forest again.

At least as it stands you have an invigorating start and then move into the forest where you stay, and that has a certain kind of momentum to it. Everyone comments on how different 1-5 are from 6-18, but if the dunes holes were suddenly 10-14, then I think the finishing four would really be a let down. It'd be a four hole stretch that people feel as bitter about as they do 18 at Cypress up the road.

Now, if you could finish Spyglass in the dunes, that'd be a whole other thing. Maybe they can buy the funky house behind the 5th green and turn it into the clubhouse.

[mike_beene]

I think Spyglass is planning on reversing the nines but not sure where I got that in my head.

[Sean_A]

Gib

I would rather get the blah walk out of the way first thing.  Plus, its nice to start on the sea.  I don't think finishing in grand style is worth starting in lame style or the walkus interuptus between 9s. 

I think there is a good argument to reverse the 9s at Edgbaston and finish in front of the house rather than at the back of the house. 

There is also a case to switch 9s at Harborne and not finish with a long par 3 and instead finish directly in front of the club house.  This also eliminates the walk past 1 tee between 9 and 10. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

No offense Gib, but generally speaking, guys who make decisions to reverse the nines do so because they want to be seen as "improving" a course and that is all they are allowed to do.

Bill Coore asked me why Barnbougle had the more dramatic dunes on the front nine instead of the back.  The reason is that the necessity of having the clubhouse in the middle of the course meant that you would EITHER have to start into the sun or finish into it; however, by playing to the west first, we avoided having to play eight straight holes into the prevailing wind through the middle of the course.  I just thought that option would wear people out.

I know I am an outlier here, but I really don't think that having the more dramatic holes on the front nine is a bad thing.  To me, it's better to engage the golfer as early as possible and then try to make up for less dramatic terrain later in the round with more difficulty.  You wouldn't do that if the nines were reversed and you had to punch up the starting holes.

[Tim Martin]

Whippoorwill reversed their nines a number of years ago. The course has a lot of elevation change and is a stout walk with the original routing having the closing holes being particularly tough with the finisher straight uphill. After a number of heart attacks and other medical issues suffered by members coming up 18 they decided to reverse the nines with the idea that it would get the toughest part of the walk done on the outward holes. I thought it flowed nicely with the nines flipped but regardless the walk is not for the timid.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I count on someone proposing to reverse the nines sometime between design and opening, usually a golf pro.  Its sort of like the overbearing mom....."I was only trying to help......"

Seriously, anyone interested in architecture can't help but fiddle with the design.  If its already complete, then fiddling with the routing is what they can do.

Sometimes, a real routing problem does arise.  Either sun orientation, as TD mentions, or some kind of bottleneck - par 3 before the 4th hole or reachable par 5 early in the round that forces their hand.  They might blame the architect for not seeing something like that in routing, but if the course is that busy, they are usually pretty happy with them otherwise......

Sometimes, its maintenance operations.  I have seen a northern course reverse nines because the first or second green didn't thaw out early enough in shoulder seasons, and I have seen other courses reverse them because the first green was to far from the maintenance building and it was too hard to get out in front of golfers.

If you have designed fairly balanced nines - usually possible, but not on a site like Spyglass Hill, it isn't always a huge problem.  BTW, I read in the RTJ bio last night that the original name for Spyglass was "Pebble Pines" and that RTJ argued against the new name, in part because it wasn't golfy, and because it would inevitably be shortened, as above, to "Spyglass."

[Connor Dougherty]

I think Spyglass is planning on reversing the nines but not sure where I got that in my head.

Mike,
I had a caddie tell me a few years ago that the resort was trying to buy out the original membership, and that once that happened, they were going to move the main clubhouse to the members' clubhouse and switch the nines. He had claimed that the original routing had the 9's switched (so that the dunes holes were on the back), but I have found no evidence of that in my own research.

It's not something I'm against at Spyglass. I've always felt that the the holes inland are really good, and that, as much as we like to talk on here about how much of a bummer it is you abruptly turn inland from the dunes, if you knew what was in the forest you had no regrets about leaving the ocean. But the current 18th is really a letdown at the end of what is an otherwise thrilling course. The 9th, meanwhile, would be a daunting, thrilling finisher, with a fairly severe green to boot.

[Bill_McBride]

One good thing about an out and back routing is nobody talks about how great it would be to switch the nines. 

I've always felt a good routing starts with that "gentle handshake" - a Mackenzie par 5 for example - and builds in challenge and excitement as you make the journey home.  Switching the nines will disrupt that flow. 

We have a course here in Pensacola, Scenic Hills CC, which actually hosted the 1969 U.S. Women's Open won by Donna Caponi.   It has two returning loops to an elevated clubhouse site.  They've switched the nines so many times I just ask, "Is #1 the long downhill par 4 or the short downhill par 4?"

[Jason Topp]

I know of one course that claimed the pace of play improved a half hour when they reversed their nines.  I am not sure why that is the case.  The course now starts with a par five, a par 3 over water and then a short cape par 4.  I think that sequence breaks all of the guidelines for how to sequence the opening holes on a course.  Nonetheless the pace of play does seem better after the change. 

I like original arrangement from a playing perspective much better but have to concede that saving a 1/2 hour per round is more important than the sequence of holes.

[Gib_Papazian]

I wonder how the spiritual Chi of Muirfield (East Lothian, not Ohio) would change if the nines were reversed. #8 as the 17th works pretty well in my mind - especially as I think it is my favorite on the golf course.

TD, no offense taken of course. It is just an interesting exercise that occurred to me after playing Meadow Club last week. They have moved the sequence of holes around over the years and although I dearly love every blade of grass on the golf course (DeVries did a masterful restoration), the current 9th hole absolutely needs to be the finisher. It is not only the best hole on an otherwise stellar golf course, but one of the marquee par-4s anywhere IMNSHO.

While we are on the subject of Spyglass, I've been playing it that way since I was a young kid, so it might be too disorienting - but I wonder the impression of a well traveled golfer who has never seen the course if the nines were flipped.

It still strikes me as strange that Jones would have chosen to put the clubhouse at the top of the hill (with no special view) instead of the bottom. A routing that sort of wandered in and out of the dunescape (like Cypress) might have been even better.       

[David Panzarasa]

I played Friars Head for the first time reversing the nines. All but the 10th being our 1st hole, thought it was amazing that way. I actually liked the 9th hole better as the 18th hole the way we played it too.

[Kyle Henderson]

I would suggest that Spyglass should start on 7 and finish with 6. 18 is a terrible finisher, and 1 is a tough opening tees shot with a blindish off camber landing zone. And, of course, the letdown from leaving the ocean after  would be ameliorated.

[Matthew Petersen]

Not exactly reversing the nines, but some years back Troon North took their 36-holes and remixed them.

The original course was Morrish and Weiskopf, opened in 1989. In 1995, they began to call that course the "Monument" as they opened a new 18 ("Pinnacle") that was just Weiskopf.

The original Pinnacle consisted of 9 holes south of Dynamite Blvd., then a lengthy drive back across the street, past the clubhouse, past a portion of the original course, to the back nine which was all north of the original 18 holes.

The "New" versions are much better in terms of flow. The "Monument" is now essentially the two original front nines, and the "New" Pinnacle is the original back nines. The new Monument still requires you to cross the road to get to the back nine but the entire course is south and west of the clubhouse, while the Pinnacle stays to the north side and has a very natural flow to its routing.

A great improvement for the facility overall.

[Ed Oden]

San Francisco is an interesting choice, moving outstanding holes like 2, 3, 6 and 7 to the final nine.  Two out of the first four holes on the reversed course would be par 3's, which normally would be a show stopper for pace of play considerations, but (of course) at SF that is not a problem. 

Reversing the nines would present a departure from the "handshake" opener that the first hole represents...the current 10th of course would be a more challenging start to the round than the current first.

My one and only play at SFGC started at 10.  Obviously, I don't have the counter experience of the normal routing, but my gut feeling is that reversing the nines is slightly better.  While the 10th may not be a gentle handshake, overall the back nine seems far less dramatic than the front.  And the 9th is a superior finishing hole to the 18th in my opinion. 

How about switching the nines at Plainfield?

[Matthew Lloyd]

Not suggesting they should do it, but I wouldn't be opposed to Kingsley flipping their nines.  My rationale:

--- the 10th tee shot would be a much gentler start to the round than the daunting tee shot at #1
--- it would give you 9 holes to get warmed up for #1
--- #9, though a par 3, would make for a great finish to a round
--- I feel like the most challenging and most memorable holes at Kingsley are spread evenly throughout the course
--- on a crowded day there's potential for an early bottleneck with #1, #2 and #3 being so difficult

Having said all of this, no change is necessary, but I think this an example of a course that would play equally well reversed

[JimB]

 It is just an interesting exercise that occurred to me after playing Meadow Club last week. They have moved the sequence of holes around over the years and although I dearly love every blade of grass on the golf course (DeVries did a masterful restoration), the current 9th hole absolutely needs to be the finisher. It is not only the best hole on an otherwise stellar golf course, but one of the marquee par-4s anywhere IMNSHO.

     

Gib, I remembered this thread this morning and when I first read it the one course that came to mind was Meadow Club. I remember thinking multiple times during play that the course would benefit from not playing into the setting sun on 17 and 18. Switching the nines would accomplish that and provide that stellar finishing hole you and I both prefer. The course was played this way during the pro-shop remodel so as to better control play off the first. The only problem was losing this

  I've always felt a good routing starts with that "gentle handshake" - a Mackenzie par 5 for example - and builds in challenge and excitement as you make the journey home.   

[Roger Wolfe]

My ultimate example of where I would switch the nines is Diamond Creek.  Front nine is break taking with a monster hole for #9 that finishes right behind the clubhouse.  Back nine plays through the woods with an uphill, forgettable finishing hole.  Surprised Ed Oden didnt mention this one!!

[Phil Lipper]

Canoe Brook North in NJ reversed the nines about 15 years ago.  The golf course used to have a weak finish now it finishes with 3 great holes, it was one of the smartest things they di.

[Rich Goodale]

Excellent thread, Brother Gib.  Sorry I was away golfing when it rose and then faded away into the distance of Page 2 a couple of weeks ago......

My candidate is Pebble Beach, in full recognition that it would involve serious destruction of real estate in the process.  At the core of this idea is a course starting at #11 and finishing at #10.  It would start (using the current routing) 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16  and end (current routing) 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.  Obviously current holes 17, 18 and 1-3 would have to be changed, but not as severely as one would think, or as one thought....

--destroy current #1 and #2  and #3 and destory/move inland all the real estate (including that ghastly Lodge--make it a half way house....) between them and current #18.  From the current 16th green add a short dog leg right par 4 up towards the tennis courts, then a par3 down towards the water to a green short of the current 17th, then a dog leg left to the north of the current 18th, and then a reverse 18th finishing on a reconsturcted 17th green.  Then onto the current 4th tee (now #12).

The course would start and end with the people, in Carmel.  All the bling (including the Lodge) would be shuffled northwards and away from the golf.  All the golf would be on or in sight of the ocean.

cheers

rich

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