[Adrian_Stiff]

I have 30 acres of land bordering the sea, it is quite steep and used to form part of a NLE designed by Harry Vardon in the late 1890s.
It is zoned for golf and ready to go, soil is good. Some pine around the edges, not much vegetation internally.

I am not sure what to go for.

Quick sketches I can get a Par 31 9 holer, might even squeeze a Par 32 perhaps with a double fairway.
or An 18 hole par 3 with holes from 100- 220.

I have had 3 walks of the site, Ben is going Friday...Any thoughts on best route?

[Paul Carey]

Nine holer.   More interesting. 

[Jaeger Kovich]

Which will produce more interesting holes and make people want to come back?

[Phil McDade]

Didn't Doak come on here recently and say building a 9-holer that had more more good holes was easier than 18? Seems the same would hold true even if it's a truncated 9 vs. 18 par 3s.

I'd go w/ the 9-holer -- there are some very good ones out there that are both full of quirk and a fun round (see: Traigh on the western coast of Scotland).

[RJ_Daley]

If you have the $$$, I think you might consider something out of ordinary.  How about a double loop 5, 6, 7 holer, so using two tee angles and different tee pads, you get a relatively normal length set of par 3s, 4s, and 5s playing through the same corridor of holes, but with different angles and slightly different yardages.  Thus you get a 10, 12, or 14 hole course.  I assume it would be relatively private, by invite only property or at least light number of rounds per day.  

[Matthew Essig]

To get a better idea of what you are working with.....
Can you say exactly where the site is?
You said you had quick sketches.....any chance you could post them?

Without any extra info, I would say the 9-holer.

How about a 9-holer that can be reversible? It could switch directions from morning to afternoon or just day-to-day?

When you aren't focused on an 18-hole course, there are many possibilities, like David's option below.

[David_Elvins]

Neither.

9-12 hole par 3.  Large putting course and short game area.  A few picnic areas.

[AKikuchi]

Your question reminded me of this old thread about alternative courses http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,29030.0.html

One key question is who are you building it for/ who do you expect or hope to play it?

[Peter Pallotta]

Adrian - my first reaction is to suggest a wonderful 9 hole course, which most golfers like me long for. But my second reaction is to remember that a new 18 hole par 3 recently opened in town, and that it has proved very very popular with just about everyone (from what I hear) - seniors, beginning/occasional golfers, regular golfers getting in a round after work or practicing their iron play etc. But my third reaction is to note that the oldest course in my town has been around for over 100 years, and was designed as and remains a 9 hole course. The short history in the small pro shop says that the founders were Scottish immigrants who themselves had grown up on a 9 hole course; and the site -- like yours -- is quite steep. It has two sets of tees for each hole, and for the "18" totals about 5500 yards. The folks at my course haven't made much use of the second tees -- most are very close to or on roughly the same line as the first set. But I bet you could do it much better, and thus produce a sporty course that is essentially a 9 holer, but that can very realistically provide enjoyment and even challenge over 18 (my course plays tougher and longer than the yardage with several steeply uphill holes and the "downhills" being used up mostly on the Par 3s.)

All the best
Peter

[Mac Plumart]

Which will produce more interesting holes and make people want to come back?

+1

[mike_beene]

How about 12 holes? Nine not quite enough but 18 is plenty.If you could do 6 hole loops it would give all sorts of possibilities.

[Frank Pont]

I would go for the par 3 course.

Key for that is that you mention that the site is steep.
That should be much better for building a par 3 course than forcing par 4 holes onto the landscape.
Patrice and I have been looking at a site in France with very steep slopes, where we came to the same conclusion that a par 3 course would work best.

The other key would be to create as much variety as you can, and maybe you can achieve that best with less than 18 holes, eg two loops of 6 holes and one loop of 3 holes....

[Adrian_Stiff]

Thanks for your replies and thoughts:

The land is at Portishead near Bristol. If you use Google Earth and the Street view on Nore Road you get some ideas's of the land and views. It is used to be a full 18 holer, then an 18 hole par 3 pitch n putt and last year the present owner decided to make a 9 hole par 30 course, but he lives too far away from the project and it is not practical for him.

Frank's point about the steepness is my main concern and the reason I keep getting swayed into an 18 hole par 3 course. If I go the 9 hole route I could be 8-10 weeks with a D6 chopping it about to contour fairways in some areas. A putting course and short game area is very possible. It has a pub next door that was the old clubhouse 100 years ago. The car park is shared.

It is a real project and must commercially stack up. Part of the deal is that it must remain open to all for golf and be reasonably priced, so it becomes a balancing act on what can/can't be spent.

[James Boon]

Adrian,

Having recently visited Jon Wiggett's 9 hole Brahan course in Scotland, I was impressed with the variety of challenge possible by having large greens with 2 flags added to the more usual second set of tees. So personally I'd probably be leaning towards a nine hole course, however I'm a firm believer that the desire for a strict 18 holes (or 9 holes on smaller parcels of land) has watered down many potentially very good and interesting courses, so are there any "outside of the box" options?

- What about a 6 hole course?
- What about 6 holes with very large greens that you could have 3 flags on? Probably a bit wild that and mowing the greens would become a chore  Not to mention 3 sets of tees... 
- I'm no expert on the amount of land you will need, but could you push up to 12 or 13 holes? Doesnt seem too much of an issue at Shiskine or the par 3 at Bandon? In fact maybe the par 3 course would be better at a shorter number of holes than 18???
- From the slope of the site and its coastal position, there are probably a couple or 3 holes already suggesting themselves to you? Why not just go out and find the best holes you can and then stop there, whether its 5 , 8 or any other none standard number?

I'm sure there are some people who would say "well its not a proper golf course if its got X holes" but at the same time it could certainly be your unique selling point?!

Certainly looks an interesting site! Have as much fun as you can routing this land and good luck!

Cheers,

James

[Adam Lawrence]

Lots of people and places are adding Himalayas-type putting greens these days (not just Bandon and Trump Scotland). I think they are a great idea - they needn't take up too much space and they are huge fun for everyone, golfers and virtual non golfers alive. I bet a large proportion of British golfers first held a club on a local authority putting green - excellent tools for growing the game. And if you have any aspirations for corporate business they're a fantastic location for post event giggles.

[Josh Stevens]

would 18 holes actually be possible?

Do the maths, (or math as you Americans say).  But firstly we must convert to metric - again with your Americans

30 acres is 12.14 hectares.  That is 121,405m2 in total.   So lets say we need at least 30m width for each fairway just to reduce the odds of killing someone, meaning we can only fit in a course of 4046m, or 4424 yards, if every square inch were fairway.

Stick with 9 I think

[Ally Mcintosh]

Adrian,

You have more experience than anyone on here of how to create a business plan for low- medium budget operations so I guess you might already have your answer.

But on 30 acres of steep land, I’d be more inclined to try and create an all-inclusive, fun, playing area such as a 9 hole par-3 course (with a couple of driver holes), perhaps reversible; with a himalyas putting green, a short game area and a deck with barbeque on the go…

Ally

[Kyle Casella]

I haven't seen the site so I could be way off base, but might it be difficult to build 18 good par 3's and keep the course interesting? I've only played a couple of 18 hole par 3 courses and they seem to get repetitive. I like the loop idea someone mentioned.

Do you have enough space to make the greens big enough for two pins on each? I've seen that on a couple of nine-hole courses and it can work well if done properly.

[Philippe Binette]

Built the best holes possible..

if you  1 350 yards hole
          1 320 yards hole
          1 270 yards hole
          1 250 yards hole

any the rest holes of 220 or less... it would be fun no matter the par..

don't hesitate to built a 95 yard hole...


Aim for FUN FUN FUN

[Ryan Coles]

All the best with it Adrian.

It is a good catchment area. Lots of youngish families and I think it could prove a popular and busy venue.

[Bruce Katona]

Adrian: Will there be a lovely cart lass driving around keeping the partons "hydrated" to drive the F&B line?  I hope so!

Run the numbers , but a Par 3 or chip & putt with amenities like food, benches etc won't be much to maintain and should spin off some frede cash.

Good luck & have fun.

[Paul Gray]

Romantic ideas are one thing but what's the local competition like? If you're surrounded by half decent nine hole courses you might well be better to think about the par 3 course, ideally with an 18 hole putting course available as well.

Keep costs down with relatively small greens and charge £6 or so for 18 holes on the par 3 course and maybe £2.50 for 18 holes on the putting course. Obviously discount that for kids and the over 60s. In short, make it very accessible to golfers and newcomers alike. Sell beginners clubs in 'the pro shop' but don't try to compete with the big chains when it comes to £300 drivers. Make sure you can do a little sideline in food and drinks but do it in such a way that costs are variable, i.e defined by demand, so you're not losing money on a quiet day.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian: Will there be a lovely cart lass driving around keeping the partons "hydrated" to drive the F&B line?  I hope so!

Run the numbers , but a Par 3 or chip & putt with amenities like food, benches etc won't be much to maintain and should spin off some frede cash.

Good luck & have fun.

Hi Bruce, No cart girl for this one, we don't have enough consistent good weather in the UK and the staffing will be as little as maintenance just 1 greenkeeper and 1 person at the kiosk, I can do cans and sandwiches but there is a great eating and drinking facilty backing on to the course if customers want more.

Ryan - Thanks for the good luck message, I am inclined to do something to get new blood into golf to help grow the game, will be doing a himalayas putting green and hopefully short game area. I started at a municipal putting green then pitch n putt...shame those things don't exist much in parks.

As for the routing, I have 5 holes that would be in my 9 hole or my 18 holer....the 4 longer holes are not the stand out holes, though two of them would be great split. Maybe Ben will find something on his visit.

A par 3 can be built in acre (140 yds x 35) so with 30 acres it can be cost effective for the land.

Commercially the 18 par 3 makes most sense since I can get twice as many users. I was thinking £10 green fee £5 for kids.
A 9 holer still £10 £5 kids.....its just if I can get over the steepness issue.

If you are on my facebook I have posted pics 'lost vardon'.

Thanks for the replies. Adrian

[Niall C]

Adrian

I suggest you go with the option that offers a solution that is the least compromised and the most fun. Once you decide that, sell it to client on basis of its virtues.

Niall

Edit - thinking about it a bit more I would add that in a way you are in a good position of not having to conform to tick-box architecture eg. par 72 - check, 2 routes of nine - check, par 3's going different ways - check etc. That being the case why go looking for justification for your decision. You don't need to think outside the box because you're not even in it. Just go with what seems right.

[George Pazin]

Could you do an 18 hole par 3 where, on occasion, one might string together a couple holes to make par 4s and par 5s? Something like 1st tee to the 2nd fairway would be a par 4, 3rd tee to the 5th fairway to the 6th green would be a par 5, etc? That might allow the best of both worlds.

Assuming that idea is totally nuts, my first instinct would always be for a 9 holer, but the steepness you cite may lend itself better to a par 3 course.

Sorry that rambling accomplished little. I'm off to Google Earth...

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