[BCowan]

''As for Double Eagle, please tell me how you know about the maintenance practices there.  How should that course be maintained, please enlighten us.''

    They water the native grass that is 100 yards out of play there, if that isn't an indication that they over water the course, I don't know what is.  The course plays way too soft, they love there green there!  
  

If that's how the club and members want it, who are we to say they are wrong. Granted, it's not what I would want day-in, day-out, but it's not my club.  Double Eagle is a lot of fun, though.

I agree completely.  I can criticize their taste, can't I? 

[BHoover]

''As for Double Eagle, please tell me how you know about the maintenance practices there.  How should that course be maintained, please enlighten us.''

    They water the native grass that is 100 yards out of play there, if that isn't an indication that they over water the course, I don't know what is.  The course plays way too soft, they love there green there!  
  

If that's how the club and members want it, who are we to say they are wrong. Granted, it's not what I would want day-in, day-out, but it's not my club.  Double Eagle is a lot of fun, though.

I agree completely.  I can criticize their taste, can't I? 

Sure, but that doesn't make it a bad course. For the record, I don't think it's anywhere as good as MV, but I think Scioto is the best course in Columbus.

[Michael George]

MVGC is the best Nicklaus course that I have played.  

No reason to get personal.

John - was not even thinking about that.   In fact, I often forget that Dismal River is a Nicklaus course - I just feel that all of those courses in the sandhills are built by God a lot more than any architect.  

As you know, I loved Dismal River and defend it from those that bash it without ever having played it or ever having given it a chance ....but I think there are some other strings on that issue so I will thankfully not go down that road today

In fact, while I would probably put MVGC above Dismal River in my arbitrary golf course rankings, I think the total experience at Dismal River is superior to MVGC.  The clubhouse, people and setting are much better at Dismal River and cows are a much better neighbor than houses. 

I respect your argument on staying loyal to your clubs.  I fully understand why you would rather experience Dismal River again and again over MVGC and other courses.  There is comfort in places and people that you know and love.

[Brian Finn]

''As for Double Eagle, please tell me how you know about the maintenance practices there.  How should that course be maintained, please enlighten us.''

    They water the native grass that is 100 yards out of play there, if that isn't an indication that they over water the course, I don't know what is.  The course plays way too soft, they love there green there!

BCowan - curious about the source of this information - can you tell us how you learned of this practice?  I hope you have a solid source, or have witnessed it first hand.  Their superintendent (who has been there since the course was built) is a friend to many on this board.  Whatever their practices may be, I would hate to see them misrepresented.

[Greg Tallman]

For those citing the housing as a negative at Muirfield Village, apart from #17 where does housing even remotely infringe on a playing corridor?

[George Pazin]

Or said another way, if you want to be critical of Nicklaus, you have to criticize MVGC.

Why?

[Michael George]

For those citing the housing as a negative at Muirfield Village, apart from #17 where does housing even remotely infringe on a playing corridor?

I would not say that the houses infringe on the playability of the course, but they are present on almost every hole and really hurt the "walk in the park" feel of the place.

The 6th hole is particularly bad.  So is the house to the right of #15 tee, which is really on top of you.  

[Michael George]

Or said another way, if you want to be critical of Nicklaus, you have to criticize MVGC.

Why?

There are certain courses that define architects, whether the architect likes it or not.  MVGC is Jack's defining course.   We often talk about architectural styles on this website.  Many have criticized Nicklaus' style of architecture on this site.  It is pretty hard to compliment MVGC, as his defining course, if you hold that position on his architectural style.

I find the same to be true with Shadow Creek and Tom Fazio.  It is hard to bash the manufactured style of Tom Fazio and then follow up with a compliment of Shadow Creek.

My architectural tastes are similar to a lot of other people on this site - I have C & C and Doak courses all over my top 10 - rightfully so.  I seek out playing their courses more than others.  However, I don't believe in the "because it is a ____________, I have no interest in seeing it" mentality.  There is a likelihood that I won't like it as much as some other courses, but I will let my experience make that decision for me.  

  

[Brent Hutto]

How does that Wentworth course they're playing on this week compare with Muirfield Village? Superficially, from just glancing at the TV for a few minutes they seem to have some similarity. Plus it's raining at Wentworth like it seems to every year at the Memorial ;-)

[Chris_Hufnagel]

For all the fans of Muirfield Village Golf Club...



These are available at homage.com.

*I have no affiliation with the guys from Homage.

[Carl Johnson]

1. Bethpage Black - Loved the place before the renovation. It is the ultimate in Yogism, "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

2. Connecticut Golf Club - Men's club, golf only, I like that vibe a few times a year but it ain't Garden City or Pine Valley. Would love to have Black Sheep in Connecticut.

3. Wee Burn Country Club (CT) - There was probably a good Emmet course there at one point, but with multiple renovations packed into a country club scene, pass.

4. New Haven Country Club - If I am driving to New Haven, I play Yale

5. Greenwich Country Club - See Wee Burn but a total mish mash of redos packaged into the Greenwich country club scene, pass.

Mike, just considering the Wee Burn course, what do you know about the course pre-renovations, and the changes made by the renovations that you believe have brought it down?  I've played it a number of times in recent years (guest) and found it to be a very nice course that I'd go back to anytime I'm invited.  (Since I was only there as a golf guest I did not have to deal with the "cc scene" in any negative way.)

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary,

You just admitted it was a disappointment and no where near as fabulous as PV.

So, unless you're trying to get that final notch on your boot and willing to move heaven and earth to do it, why is it worth an insane amount of effort to play it? I'm not sure I'd be just as happy walking it once everybody is off the course after the Monday practice round

Gib:

There r certain things u do in life cuz u can. This is one of them. It's a wonderful memory, u get to understand better the shots the pros have to hit. It's like a choc brownie with choc ice cream with hot fudge poured over it. Maybe too much choc but heh, got to try it!

[BCowan]

''As for Double Eagle, please tell me how you know about the maintenance practices there.  How should that course be maintained, please enlighten us.''

    They water the native grass that is 100 yards out of play there, if that isn't an indication that they over water the course, I don't know what is.  The course plays way too soft, they love there green there!

BCowan - curious about the source of this information - can you tell us how you learned of this practice?  I hope you have a solid source, or have witnessed it first hand.  Their superintendent (who has been there since the course was built) is a friend to many on this board.  Whatever their practices may be, I would hate to see them misrepresented.

First hand.  The super does what the owner wants.  I like the course a lot too!  I don't understand why you are getting so bent out of shape over it.  A person can say they think a course is over watered can they not? 

[Greg Tallman]

For those citing the housing as a negative at Muirfield Village, apart from #17 where does housing even remotely infringe on a playing corridor?

I would not say that the houses infringe on the playability of the course, but they are present on almost every hole and really hurt the "walk in the park" feel of the place.

The 6th hole is particularly bad.  So is the house to the right of #15 tee, which is really on top of you.  

Interesting. It seemed to me the housing along 6 was set well back into the relatively thick woods, cannot imagine that really bothering anyone who was not otherwise looking for a reason to criticize.

Can't for the life of me picture a house near 15 tee but it has been nearly 15+ years since I played there.

[John Kavanaugh]

Barny,

Did you just write that "NOTHING" overseas is worth the effort to play it?

Obviously, you've gone round the bend.

County Down is worth paddling across the Atlantic in a canoe and then crawling the rest of the way on your knees.

I just went overseas for the first and only time in my life this Christmas to visit Rome. I had to see this new Pope to see if he was for real. Never once on that trip did I wish that I was golfing instead. I would be embarrassed to take the time and effort to travel overseas and play golf. At my age I may have ten overseas trips left in my life and don't want to waste a single day golfing. Now my daughter does live in Sydney and does have access to any course of my choosing. I may play golf when I do visit but that won't be so much to play golf as to fill the time. Won't take my clubs.

Honestly, I'm embarrassed to be a golfer. To be both an American abroad and a golfer is more than I can stand.

[Terry Lavin]

JK,

Thanks for saying it for me. I've actually been to Europe eight times and didn't play a single hole. I don't feel unfulfilled, as Europe, to me, has much more to offer than great golf.   So, at the risk of offending everybody, my top 3 here would be TOC, Dornoch and RCD.

[BHoover]

''As for Double Eagle, please tell me how you know about the maintenance practices there.  How should that course be maintained, please enlighten us.''

    They water the native grass that is 100 yards out of play there, if that isn't an indication that they over water the course, I don't know what is.  The course plays way too soft, they love there green there!

BCowan - curious about the source of this information - can you tell us how you learned of this practice?  I hope you have a solid source, or have witnessed it first hand.  Their superintendent (who has been there since the course was built) is a friend to many on this board.  Whatever their practices may be, I would hate to see them misrepresented.

First hand.  The super does what the owner wants.  I like the course a lot too!  I don't understand why you are getting so bent out of shape over it.  A person can say they think a course is over watered can they not? 

Ben,
Your statement does not match what I was told by a former assistant keeper at Double Eagle (who is now the keeper at my club). He told me that the course (not just native grass) was maintained very dry, sometimes past the wilting point to push for better conditions. He would be surprised if the course is kept "too wet" because they have limited water, and can suffer during drought periods. He did concede that the irrigation system does touch native areas in some locations but that is due largely to the age of the irrigation system and the fact that the large playing area means that some water happens to reach the native areas in some spots. The course also sits on poorly draining soils, so it can be wet a week after better-draining courses in the area from the same rain event.

Anyway, I don't want to get into an argument with you, but this is the opinion of someone I very much trust and believe. His view does not suggest overwatering.

[Mike Sweeney]

Honestly, I'm embarrassed to be a golfer. To be both an American abroad and a golfer is more than I can stand.

The Jaka double standard is alive and well!!

We are all bad people for not joining every over priced over watered American country club, yet we should not support golf in international times zones!

My business partner's father is a 73 years old, and lives in Florence and is Black Belt in Judo. When he comes to NYC 3-4 times a year, he does not go to some fancy tourist trap, he goes to the Judo Room at the New York Athletic Club and fight guys 30-40 years his junior.

If you do not drag your clubs through international borders and risk marital bliss, it is hard to say you are a real golfer.

[BCowan]

Was he there in 2000-2001?  I did a research paper on Grow in and it was written by the head keeper at DE.  The course does sit on clay (as does Oakmont) and they brought in 6 inches of topsoil during construction (Id be happy to dig it up).  He said that there wasn't any irrigation heads in the Native?  I was not talking about overlapping.  The course does get more rain than the city area for some reason with weather patterns shifting to the north.  Drainage would probably be more of the issue than over watering but i thought it was a combination of both there.  I never saw it at a wilting point 13 years ago.  Things can change every 5 years or so.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Sometimes you need to go underground to work on a new move. I thought the Iron Sheik only had the Camel Clutch. This video proves otherwise. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LMuW5z_NHiE

[George Pazin]

Interesting to see the idea of scarcity applied in such different fashions. Sprinkle it with a touch of judgmentalism and you have yourself quite a dish.

[Mike Sweeney]

Sometimes you need to go underground to work on a new move. I thought the Iron Sheik only had the Camel Clutch. This video proves otherwise. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LMuW5z_NHiE

Hollywood moves do not count, and I did watch the video.

How many moves can you really have in golf?

We listen to Johnny Miller say every weekend that such and so "does not like to play a fade" and that is typically a Top 50 player in the world. In a really good day, I have maybe 3 clubs that I feel good over, and neither is driver or putter!

This is why golf course architecture is interesting. Some courses are clearly going to favor some players. Nobody has all the moves for a given course other than maybe Tiger at his peak.

[Tom_Doak]

This is why golf course architecture is interesting. Some courses are clearly going to favor some players. Nobody has all the moves for a given course other than maybe Tiger at his peak.

100% true.  And of course, that is what drives most of the players' comments on golf course design -- what they are really complaining about is "this course does not set up well for ME".

[Patrick Schultheis]

A couple for me:

Whistling Straits
Sahalee
Vintage Club (Fazio Course)

[Mike Sweeney]

This is why golf course architecture is interesting. Some courses are clearly going to favor some players. Nobody has all the moves for a given course other than maybe Tiger at his peak.

100% true.  And of course, that is what drives most of the players' comments on golf course design -- what they are really complaining about is "this course does not set up well for ME".

Tom,

What are your Top 3 narrowest original courses?

PS. Caveat for course owners, Tom Doak's narrowest course are probably wider than 90% of all courses.  

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