How Long Does it Take for a Course to Lose its Reputation?

[Sean_A]

This seems to in the main be an issue for new courses.  I would say for the pretenders, it takes as long to lose a rep as it took to buy the rep.  The cycles of mag ranking can be nasty business.   

The one course in England which has fallen out of favour is Westward Ho!  This may be connected with its slow slide off the top 100 lists which in turn was effected by the many new builds in the 80s and 90s.  I think we shall see the rep of some new builds slowly slide away, but often, they will be replaced by yet newer builds.  Anyway, I think the mag rankings had the effect of reinforcing American style design in the UK and thus pushing outlier courses out of favour.  In general, the rankings are becoming more homogenous leaving character courses in the dust.   

Ciao

Quiz question:

When Golf World started its GB&I rankings in 1982, it nominated a list of 25 as the best (not numerically).

One of those courses is no longer in the Top 100. And another is no longer in the Top 50. The other 23 are still there or thereabouts.

Which two courses fell from favour?

It would help to know the GW Top 100 

Without seeing the list, I will guess Woburn, Addington, Moortown or Southport and Ainsdale.

Killarney or Fota Island.

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Well, I guess we can look at it as positive or negative -

Bad - Marketing fools some people some of the time
Good - Eventually, golfers figure it out for themselves.
Bad - However, if they already have invested in that new home and membership, they may be stuck anyway.

Looking at the courses on the "ranking" or upper end, it occurs to me that general styles have fallen out of favor.  Obviously, for so many Golden Age courses to have been changed up post WWII, it seems the combined trauma of the war and recession had folks clamoring for something new and different, so the classic fell out of style, for reasons well beyond golf itself.  If the courses had declined in that period due to more pressing concerns, that probably added fuel to the renovation fire.

Then, tough courses were "in" due to Golf Digest, so more classics left the list.

Now, fun is back in the rankings, so the Fisher's Island and what not are back in style, and highly ranked.  

Minimalism is the rage, and must affect rankings.

Who knows what trend/fad will influence such things next.......

[James Boon]

Ally,
I seem to recall noticing that some of the original 25 had totally dropped off the radar? Wasn't it Royal Worlington or Royal Ashdown Forest, somewhere like that anyway?
Cheers,
James

[Ally Mcintosh]

James and Sean,

Well done.

The one that dropped out of the 100 (and a few years ago too) was Killarney Mahony's Point...

The one that dropped out of the 50 (now at 89ish) was Royal Ashdown Forest.

[Michael George]

Jeff:

As with any business, I think that quality wins over time.  

So, I think there are some courses that get a lot of publicity upon opening, but then as time passes, people realize that the course just is not that good.  Usually these are high priced projects that spend a lot of money on the front end.   These can also include residential developments that people just realize that the homes ruin the experience.

I think there are other courses that are quality courses but are not maintained over the years (either due to poor leadership or lack of funds), resulting in shrinking greens and fairways, overgrown trees and other common problems.  This is the classic Bethpage story.  They are not down and out forever, but need to be properly maintained to show its quality.

Lastly, I think there is an element of what is "in vogue".  Some courses are quality courses for what they intend to be, but those types of courses just aren't the "hot" thing right now.  For instance, quirky courses like Eastward Ho! used to be panned and now they are revered.  Just a timing issue.

One problem is that some courses are not given the opportunity to show their quality over time.  Some courses are just not properly capitalized or lack sound business practices.  So people don't have time to realize or appreciate the quality. 

But in the end, if the course is designed and maintained well, quality will shine through.


 

[Tom_Doak]

Red Lobster was just sold...Times change.  Red Lobster didn't get worse, we got better.

True enough.  My favorite recent book used the restaurant business as an example of how, even though the success rate of new restaurants is appallingly low, the standard of restaurants as a whole continues to improve.

[Jeff_Brauer]

My wife used to take her kids to Red Lobster every time there was bad news, like divorce, death in family, etc.  Now, they won't go there.

Michael George,

True enough on the national scale.  However, there are many courses, never really noticed in the press that quietly serve their members as a great "course you could play every day" without any fanfare at all.  Members love them, even if the press doesn't.  I guess it is a full spectrum of reputations, always moving up or down relative to something - economy, press, new courses opening, old courses closing, new courses closing, price drops, and of course, the bad maintenance year or years.

[Kyle Casella]

Red Lobster was just sold...Times change.  Red Lobster didn't get worse, we got better.

True enough.  My favorite recent book used the restaurant business as an example of how, even though the success rate of new restaurants is appallingly low, the standard of restaurants as a whole continues to improve.

Tom- sounds interesting what is the book called?

Loch Lomond is one that comes to mind from a rankings perspective. I think it debuted in the mid-40's and it's now 89 even though the course has arguably gotten much better over the last decade with an aggressive sanding program. I think, as others have mentioned, that tastes and style have changed and propelled a lot of courses up the rankings. Also the renovation/restoration boom in the last few years helped a lot of older courses that had fallen out of favor jump back into the fray.

[Michael George]

Jeff:

Those clubs that quietly serve their members don't care about their "reputations" so there is really nothing to lose.  I believe that these are some of the best clubs. 

Kind of like people.  There are people who are happy with themselves and their family and don't care what the world thinks of them.  There are others that need validation from outside themselves and their family to be happy.  I like the first kind of people.

[Jud_T]

There has to be a baker's dozen of Fazio courses that have debuted on the Top 100 Modern list only to slowly sink into quicksand.

[David Ober]

I've never heard of Loxawhatever but Troon and Desert Highlands are long forgotten.  Red Lobster was just sold...Times change.  Red Lobster didn't get worse, we got better.

Wow. I like that: "_______ didn't get worse, we got better...."

May I steal that from time to time? 

[John Kavanaugh]

I've never heard of Loxawhatever but Troon and Desert Highlands are long forgotten.  Red Lobster was just sold...Times change.  Red Lobster didn't get worse, we got better.

Wow. I like that: "_______ didn't get worse, we got better...."

May I steal that from time to time? 

Thanks. Red Lobster has played a huge role in the lives of us who are now middle aged living in the middle of the country.  35 years ago I would drive an hour to Terre Haute, Indiana to eat at Red Lobster to impress the girl who is now my wife.  I still love going there today and watching young couples out for a special night.  I miss those hot sweaty nights in red neck heaven.

[JESII]

Now there's an image that will linger for a while...

[Josh Tarble]

I would guess a course starts to lose it's reputation when it starts pandering to keep that reputation.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff - there are four courses near my home, all modest "semi privates", i.e. basically public courses with a couple of hundred members (no initiation fees, just a yearly payment that works out to 30 rounds per year and gets you into the members' tournament) and small banquet facilities for weddings etc. Each of them offers decent, affordable golf, and none of them is very long (about 6300-6500 from the tips). I've played all of them at least 4 times, but two of them I've now stopped playing completely: one course because of truly sloppy and inconsistent and haphazard maintenance, so wet year long in some areas that you actually squish along and get mud on every ball all the time and you can't tell what's fairway and what's rough, and then so scrubby in other areas that the greens are half sand (it seems) and you're chipping off rock; the other course because, though it's a semi private, seems not to want my business at all -- time after time me and my playing partner were greeted by the grouchy club house boys with either complete disinterest or downright contempt, especially if we asked to walk a quick nine starting on the back. So, in short: though I'm no stickler for either maintenance or etiquette, the quickest way for a course to 'lose its reputation' with me is either to have lousy conditions or a lousy attitude.  Oh, and about how long it took: well, i don't play very much, so it took me two seasons to play those two courses 4 times each. If I played a little more often, both of those courses would've lost their reputation in a single year.

Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

There is a finite amount of reputation in the world. When one course raises in reputation another course or courses fall an equal amount.

[Adam Lawrence]

Red Lobster was just sold...Times change.  Red Lobster didn't get worse, we got better.

True enough.  My favorite recent book used the restaurant business as an example of how, even though the success rate of new restaurants is appallingly low, the standard of restaurants as a whole continues to improve.

The fundamental reason for this being that despite nearly everyone who goes into the restaurant business knowing the failure rate is something like 80 per cent, they're still prepared to give it a go.

[Tony_Muldoon]

It would be intersting to chart the fortunes of The Addington.  It used to be most highly thought of and got one off events like the US Ryder cup team visiting, and the very first Halford Hewitt matches.  It's reputation was first challenged by the nNw course there but that went shortly agfter the war. The Addington still had a crack team of low handicappers in eht early 50's and a reputation as a bit of a hard drinking man's place.  But the develpements in the area (New Addington village is awful) and the aging owner allowed it to fall from grace. My guess is the reputation fell with the quality of the maintenance, but the other factors were working alongside that.  When the magazines#'s started their ratings I don't belveve it ever made it in.


The fist spark of interest came in the Confindential Guide (Kudos Tom) and it became the engish hidden gem here on GCA.  There was a lot of clearing started 10 years ago. I don't have all the magazines but I think it came inot the top 100 guides abuot 6 years ago, and though it's yet to crack the top 50 (I believe!) that's quite a comeback.

[Tom_Doak]

The fundamental reason for this being that despite nearly everyone who goes into the restaurant business knowing the failure rate is something like 80 per cent, they're still prepared to give it a go.

Yes, and that should be true for the golf course development business, as well.  Get into it because you love it, even though you know the odds are against you.  Instead, there is so much hand-wringing about how the future of the game is dim -- you do not hear the people in the restaurant business whinging about that, even though the odds are against them.


Tony:

Your story about The Addington is missing Peter's anecdote about service.  When I inquired about playing the course on my first visit to England, in 1982, they told me I couldn't play as a single so I was not welcome unless I brought someone else!  It was being run by the descendants of Abercromby's family, I believe, and they didn't seem to care if anyone played there or not.  The maintenance had run down as well; the bridges were unsafe to cross.  It is not at all surprising that it had fallen off the radar, it was almost as if they were trying to.

[Adam Clayman]

Funny, but I spoke with Rees Jones today on another topic, but he did mention that the basic reason Phil hated Cog Hill was that the frontal bunkers kept him from reaching the green from under the trees after a wild tee shot.  Is that valid?

Dubs was always like that. I sure hope Rees doesn't take it personally.

Conditioning is always a dubious excuse. Management and attitude would seem to matter more to real golfers who value their wallet over getting their asses kissed.

There is some news out this way;
Wild Horse's board is considering on-site lodging. Purportedly, they are going after some of Bayside's revenue stream and have received numerous requests from drunks that don't (or can't) drive the 3 miles to the hotel.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

I started this thread thinking about "average" public courses.

With oversupply these days, if a typical golfer sees the greens going bad, does he go to another course where they are better, and the price is competitive?  Does he go back, or does inertia keep him at his new home course?

From everything I hear, many golfers would put up with A-holes in the pro shop if their putts rolled true......you only deal with staff a few minutes (unless an aggressive ranger) but you deal with those greens all day.  In other words, with the glut of golf, I wondered if each course has less slack for poor conditions, even while all of them seem to be trimming maintenance to the bone?

Funny, but I am working with another course who wonders if it is a good idea to get in the banquet and wedding biz (I think not) and one reason I cited against was the advantage hotels have for such functions, because the drunks don't have to drive home in this legal climate of strict DUI laws.  They seem to dismiss that as a factor, even though this course is 20 miles out of town, and I believe they may spend a few million on an empty clubhouse.  Then again, what do I know?

[Gib_Papazian]

Perhaps it might be my imagination, but has the mystique of Kingsbarns mostly evaporated? I recall when it opened, everyone was hyperventilating with hyperbolic proclamations it could stand up to the best of Scotland.

It is a fine "American style" golf course trying awfully hard to be an authentic links. However, I think most experienced players understand on a visceral level that Kingsbarns is a parkland course set in a faux-dunes setting.