[Peter Pallotta]

The first is a defining element of greatness; the second describes the vast majority of modern golf course architecture.

Discuss.

Peter

[Ally Mcintosh]

The first is a defining element of greatness; the second describes the vast majority of modern golf course architecture.

Discuss.

Peter

As long as this isn't going to turn in to a minimalism versus non-minimalism thread, then I agree.

[Bill_McBride]

If by "character" you mean one demanding shot after another then I disagree.

[Greg Tallman]

If by "character" you mean one demanding shot after another then I disagree.

Replace demanding with intriguing or interesting and you have it

[Ally Mcintosh]

I read it nothing like Greg and Bill...

For me, it's more restraint versus abundance of features... or visionary versus copycat.... or everything in the right place versus everything all over the place...

[BCrosby]

As Ally says, the difference is the self confidence it takes to be restrained. Subtlety is never captured by caricature.

Bob

[Mike_Young]

hmmmmm....character has to be developed and caricature is often an exaggeration of specific features of a subject.  Caricature can capture a thought or position in a quick read. Modern RE ventures needed caricature much more than character.  John Wooden once said "Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.  I think this can apply to golf courses also.  The reputation of the day is what sells RE.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks. Always interesting to find out what different words mean to different posters. The minimalism-non minimalism debate didn't enter my mind (this time), and neither did challenging vs easy or penal vs strategic  (though I guess all of those might fit the question).

I was thinking out good courses, what they had in common, and "character" came to mind -- by which I mean a kind of unique and clear and unabashed personality, a quality of "isness" that each course wears proudly.

Off the top of my head (and just to select a few out of many): Carnoustie has character, and Seminole, and Notts. and Oakmont; Plainfield has character, and so too do Pasatiempo and Dornoch; I think Harbour Town has character, and Canterbury, and Mid Pines.

It's that strong personality, the proud "isness" and individuality (of purpose, of intention, of features) that is a course's true strength, it seems to me. And it is the borrowing and/or mixing and matching of features or intentions from several of these character filled courses at the same time/on the same course that can lead to caricatures.

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
I don't pretend to be a wordsmith but would it be a fair statement to say the features were found on the courses with "isness" and created on the caricature courses?

[Tony Ristola]

Character... Time. Thought. Craftsmanship.

Caricature. Trends. Gimmicks. Mail-it-in. Hit-run-and-hope.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Character is what you do when no one's looking. Therefore blindness.

[Carl Rogers]

specific course .... What does Tobacco Road represent?  a blend of both?

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - I honestly don't know if the difference is between 'found' and 'created'. For example, on none of the courses I mentioned above would I be able to tell what the original architect found and what he created, especially after all these years -- and yet, the over-all result is a feeling of character. Maybe as Tony suggests, Time is a big factor. But I'm not sure of that either.

Mark - terrific. That's the second in the line of greeting cards!

Carl - good question/example. I don't know the course except by photos (and honestly, from photos, have little desire to play it). But it does  seem to have the character of which I speak.

Peter

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, let's see....

Many on this site would demand that all architects design to the ideals of the golden age....and now, if we do, we find the work is just a caricature of those classic works?  Can a modern architect win, without growing old and dying?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well, let's see....

Many on this site would demand that all architects design to the ideals of the golden age....and now, if we do, we find the work is just a caricature of those classic works? 

No: that's not caricature, that's homage. And yes there's not enough of that done, not really.

[Tom_Doak]

specific course .... What does Tobacco Road represent?  a blend of both?

That is the first course I thought of when I saw the word "caricature".  I like the course, but all of Mike's work was exaggerated, like his drawing style.

I like Mike Young's take better.  Signature holes and the like are caricature.  That Winston Links place in Germany seemed like caricature, from the photos.  Loxahatchee was caricature.

The aerial photos of Cape Kidnappers are caricature ... but you do not play the course from a helicopter.

[Sean_A]

So it sounds as if built crazy/outside the box/interesting stuff is caricature and found/slightly enhanced crazy/outside the box/interesting stuff is character - or one way to look at the dichotomy?  Whenever these sorts of questions are posed I always think of the old stuff like Kington or Yelverton.  This quickly snaps me back to reality.  I want to see archies take risks where earthworks or subtlety is concerned.  To me, thats character.  Caricature is building the same bog standard hole (complete with bunkers in the "correct" spots) we have all seen a million times.  

Ciao

[Josh Tarble]

I would argue that what most people want is caricature with character. 

Let's take a place like Kinglsey.  I love it, most on here love it.  But you can't tell me some of the holes are not caricatures.  #13 through #17 are perfect examples.  The green on #13 wild to the point of cartoonishness, same with the giant kickplate and old-timey wall on #14, #15 is the tiniest green you've seen on a long 4, #16 is the most extreme version of a redan you could build and I don't think I need to say anything about #17 

I mean this with all sincerity and respect, because I love the place.  But there are so many features that are caricatures of what's normal and the course is better because of it.

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