I'm Working on a Project for Low Handicappers...

[Jim Nugent]

A question about handicaps.  I don't know the exact formula for calculating handicap, but as I understand it, someone with a 5 index, as an example, averages slightly higher than that.   i.e. if the CR is 72, the 5 handicap might average something like 79 or so.   Does the arithmetic mean the opposite is true for someone with a plus handicap?  Does a +5 actually average 6 or 7 under CR?  

Does handicap understate how good the + golfer is?  
  

[Ronald Montesano]

5, western New York State, robotic consistency on best days. Won't blind you with birdies, but when I'm on, it's a smooth ride.

I may be the most erratic five I know, however, given my inability to develop a practice/play routine.

[Connor Dougherty]

A question about handicaps.  I don't know the exact formula for calculating handicap, but as I understand it, someone with a 5 index, as an example, averages slightly higher than that.   i.e. if the CR is 72, the 5 handicap might average something like 79 or so.   Does the arithmetic mean the opposite is true for someone with a plus handicap?  Does a +5 actually average 6 or 7 under CR?  

Does handicap understate how good the + golfer is?  
  

My understanding is that it takes the best 10 of your last 20 rounds and automatically includes any tournament scores. The average is then taken from the your scores against the course rating and the slope.

[Bret Lawrence]

1.1, from CT.  Best part of my game is Course Management! Without it, my handicap would certainly be higher!

[Michael Felton]

A question about handicaps.  I don't know the exact formula for calculating handicap, but as I understand it, someone with a 5 index, as an example, averages slightly higher than that.   i.e. if the CR is 72, the 5 handicap might average something like 79 or so.   Does the arithmetic mean the opposite is true for someone with a plus handicap?  Does a +5 actually average 6 or 7 under CR?  

Does handicap understate how good the + golfer is?  
  

The system works by calculating a "differential", which is equal to (score - course rating) x 113/slope rating. Your handicap is then equal to the best 10 of your last 20 differentials multiplied by 0.96. Since most slope ratings are above 113, plus handicappers are being pulled back towards zero by the slope adjustment and the 0.96. They still have the best 10 of the last 20, so their handicap will tend to be lower than their average score too. If you regularly play a course that's slope rating is 140 let's say, your course handicap gets lower, so you take your +5 and multiply that by slope rating over 113, which is probably +7 in this case. He would need to shoot 7 under the course rating to play to his handicap.

[Jim Sherma]

Index 4.9, wavering between 3.5 and 6.0 depending on time to commit to the game and how I'm keeping away from the doubles. I can grind out a lot of pars but rarely make a lot of birds. Good days are hitting a lot of greens and not making the bad miss. Bad days are when the misses put me out of position opening up the chance of doubles that I don't offset with enough birds.

I always found that my score was more about the quality of my misses, or lack thereof. The quality of the good shots rarely impacts my score.

Most solid part of my game relative to others is probably putting in the 3 to 10 foot range. Also I'm usually a decent driver i n that I can keep up with better players distance wise and don't put myself in trouble too often. Iron play and wedges can struggle at times.

[Ian Mackenzie]

+0.6

Chicago

My iron play keeps me in the game.
Scrambling, too.

[Philip Caccamise]

2.5, Kentucky. Strength is definitely short irons and wedges. Weakness is off the tee.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

+ 2.3


Arkansas

Driving the ball, short at todays standards but very accurate.

[John Kavanaugh]

What happened to GHIN?  I know that my club quit using it years ago.  It's a shame not to be able to find anyones score posting history.  I got a huge kick last year when a fellow poster, in his quest to become a Digest rater, didn't fail to break 80 for an entire year.  The guy sucks, hilarious.  So where do you guys get these handicaps?

Now if we could only get Mucci to explain why he sucks.  He's old, been sick, I get it...but can he hit a flop?

[Jim Nugent]

A question about handicaps.  I don't know the exact formula for calculating handicap, but as I understand it, someone with a 5 index, as an example, averages slightly higher than that.   i.e. if the CR is 72, the 5 handicap might average something like 79 or so.   Does the arithmetic mean the opposite is true for someone with a plus handicap?  Does a +5 actually average 6 or 7 under CR?  

Does handicap understate how good the + golfer is?  
  

The system works by calculating a "differential", which is equal to (score - course rating) x 113/slope rating. Your handicap is then equal to the best 10 of your last 20 differentials multiplied by 0.96. Since most slope ratings are above 113, plus handicappers are being pulled back towards zero by the slope adjustment and the 0.96. They still have the best 10 of the last 20, so their handicap will tend to be lower than their average score too. If you regularly play a course that's slope rating is 140 let's say, your course handicap gets lower, so you take your +5 and multiply that by slope rating over 113, which is probably +7 in this case. He would need to shoot 7 under the course rating to play to his handicap.

Michael, so the slope adjustment raises handicap for plus cappers, and the higher the slope, the more their handicap goes up.  The opposite of what's intended. 

[Michael Felton]

Jim,

The system is a blend of course rating and slope rating. Slope rating shows how much more difficult a course is for a bogey golfer than for a scratch golfer. It stands to reason that that variation in difficulty shouldn't cease at a 0 handicap. Take Bethpage Black for example. From the blue tees, it is rated 78.1 and 152. A scratch player would shoot 78 to play to his handicap and an 18 would shoot 102 to play to his. A +6 would need to shoot 70 to play to his handicap. Bethpage has quite a lot of trouble around and it's long (7,462 yards from those tees). So it's difficult for a scratch player and very difficult for a bogey golfer.

Take two courses, both are 7,000 yards. One has trouble all over the place, water, deep rough, trees, you name it. It, like BPB is going to be hard for the scratch and hard for the bogey golfer. The other is wide open and without any real trouble. That's going to be easier for the scratch player and much easier for the bogey golfer. Those two courses, the first might be 76/150 and the second might be 73/125. Harder for a scratch on the first, but marginally so. Much harder for the bogey golfer. The hypothetical +6 is most likely going to find both of those courses equally difficult. Unlikely to be troubled too much by the added trouble at the first, but you still have to hit the shots and hole the putts. So how does that get factored in? By extending slope downwards as well as upwards from zero. So the three players, bogey, scratch and +6 would see scores to play to handicap of 100 and 93 for the bogey, 76 and 73 for the scratch and 68 and 66 for the +6. So the +6 would beat the scratch by more on the higher slope course. A mythical "perfect" golfer would shoot the same score on both courses and would therefore beat everyone by more on the higher slope course.

[Bill Seitz]

3.7, Illinois, though I play mostly in Michigan.  Strength is accuracy off the tee.  Weakness is everything else.   

[John Kavanaugh]

Even in 2014 people will hand over personal information if they think it gains them status. At best this is a social experiment proving the vanity of low handicap golfers. At worst it is the start of a complicated identity stealing process that will lead to some sort of thievery. Just last year a far less sophisticated method was used to con courses along the east coast.  Did I miss the purpose of this survey?

[Nigel Islam]

What happened to GHIN?  I know that my club quit using it years ago.  It's a shame not to be able to find anyones score posting history.  I got a huge kick last year when a fellow poster, in his quest to become a Digest rater, didn't fail to break 80 for an entire year.  The guy sucks, hilarious.  So where do you guys get these handicaps?

Now if we could only get Mucci to explain why he sucks.  He's old, been sick, I get it...but can he hit a flop?

John, Indiana uses a different site now and not GHIN. Kentucky and a lot of states still use GHIN. It works as always. If you want to look up Indiana handicaps they have a different site.

[Jim Nugent]

Michael, the higher the slope, the harder a course is supposed to be for the bogey golfer vs an expert.  Bogey should get more strokes on such a course.  But as I understand the formula you gave, the handicap system does the opposite.  

For the plus handicap, the slope adjustment RAISES his handicap.  i.e. it makes it higher.  e.g. if the slope is 150, 113/150 = .75.  That raises a +4 differential to +3.  It means the bogey golfer gets one stroke less against an expert -- on a course that gives him a whole lot of trouble in the first place.  

At the same time, the higher the slope, the more that LOWERS the bogey golfer's differential.  He gets fewer strokes, on a course where he needs more.  Again take a course with slope = 150.  A 24 differential goes down to just 18.  This player gets 21 strokes against the guy with the +4 differential.  

Now say those two players play a course with 113 slope.  This course should be much easier for bogey relative to the expert.  He should get fewer strokes.  But there's no adjustment to either player's differential.  So bogey instead gets 24 + 4 = 28 strokes.  

On the easier course (relative to the expert) he gets 28 strokes.  On the harder course he gets 21.  This is built into the formula, at least as I see it in your post.  

Am I missing something here?  

[Michael Felton]

Jim,

The differentials are used to calculate a handicap index. From that index, you use the slope the other way around to calculate the course handicap. So if you have a +6, a scratch and an 18 handicap and they go play at Bethpage Black from the blue tees, the slope is 152, so the +6 would get +6 x 152/113 = +8 shots (i.e. - 8 shots), the scratch would get 0 shots and the 18 handicap would get 18 x 152/113 = 24 shots, so if they played in a match, the +6 would give the scratch 8 shots and the 18 32 shots. If they then shot 70, 78 and 102 respectively, you would go through that process I described in calculating the differential and you'd have a +6 differential, a 0 differential and an 18 differential, so all players played to their handicaps and all players tied.

You adjust actual scores to get the differential, which gives you the handicap index and then you use that to unwind that earlier adjustment to get a course handicap.

[Jim Nugent]

Michael, in your earlier post you said the slope adjustment is 113/slope.  But in your last post you flipped that, and used slope/113. 

[Michael Felton]

You do both. You adjust from the actual score to the differential by multiplying by 113/slope and then calculate your index based on the average of the best 10 of your last 20 differentials. Then when you go play, to calculate your course handicap, you take your handicap index and multiply that by slope/113.

So you go play, shoot 80 on a course that's 72 and 130. So your differential is (80-72)x113/130 = 7.0. Let's say you do that 10 times in 20 rounds and the rest are worse, then your index will be 7.0 x 10 x 0.96 / 10 = 6.7. Your index is 6.7. You go to play at that course and you multiply your index by 130/113 so 6.7 x 130/113 = 7.7, which is rounded to 8, so your course handicap is 8.

For your +6 guy, he goes and plays at a course with 78/152 and shoots 70 ten times and the rest are worse. His differentials are (70-78)x113/152 = -5.9. You take the average of the best 10 and multiply by 0.96 and you get -5.7, so his handicap is +5.7. He plays at that course and his course handicap is +5.7 x 152/113 = +7.7, which is rounded to +8.

If the 6.7 index goes to play at the second course his course handicap would be 6.7 x 152/113 = 9, so he'd get 17 shots from the +6. At the first course, the +5.7 would have a course handicap of +5.7 x 130/113 = +6.6, rounded to +7. So he'd be giving 15 shots at this course.

[David_Elvins]

You do both. You adjust from the actual score to the differential by multiplying by 113/slope and then calculate your index based on the average of the best 10 of your last 20 differentials. Then when you go play, to calculate your course handicap, you take your handicap index and multiply that by slope/113.

So you go play, shoot 80 on a course that's 72 and 130. So your differential is (80-72)x113/130 = 7.0. Let's say you do that 10 times in 20 rounds and the rest are worse, then your index will be 7.0 x 10 x 0.96 / 10 = 6.7. Your index is 6.7. You go to play at that course and you multiply your index by 130/113 so 6.7 x 130/113 = 7.7, which is rounded to 8, so your course handicap is 8.

For your +6 guy, he goes and plays at a course with 78/152 and shoots 70 ten times and the rest are worse. His differentials are (70-78)x113/152 = -5.9. You take the average of the best 10 and multiply by 0.96 and you get -5.7, so his handicap is +5.7. He plays at that course and his course handicap is +5.7 x 152/113 = +7.7, which is rounded to +8.

If the 6.7 index goes to play at the second course his course handicap would be 6.7 x 152/113 = 9, so he'd get 17 shots from the +6. At the first course, the +5.7 would have a course handicap of +5.7 x 130/113 = +6.6, rounded to +7. So he'd be giving 15 shots at this course.

And they wonder why the number of people playing golf is falling.

[Steve Lang]

  John K,

I'm working on a project for 1/3rd to bogey golfers, but I'd consider that someone must be fun to play with..  cause a single number doesn't really mean anything, eh? 



  when I as a 5, it was less fun grinding for scores than just making shots; i never met a sucker pin i didn't like

[David Ober]

Jim, you have it exactly backwards--at least in terms of how it ends up working out when you are playing a match against someone. For your individual scores on a given day, the harder the course gets, the more your differentials get pushed from the outsides in toward 0, yes.

However, for actually playing a match against someone and calculating how many strokes to give in a given match, they get pushed away from 0 as the course gets more difficult (higher slope), thus requiring the low handicapper to give more strokes to the higher handicapper.

So, as a quick example, a player with an index of 12.0 on a 150 slope course would play to a course handicap of 16, while a +3.0 would play to a course handicap of +4, thus requiring that the +3.0 to give the 12.0, not fifteeen shots as you would if you merely used the index to calculate strokes, but twenty due to the adjustment that gets made because the course is so difficult.

Michael, the higher the slope, the harder a course is supposed to be for the bogey golfer vs an expert.  Bogey should get more strokes on such a course.  But as I understand the formula you gave, the handicap system does the opposite.  

For the plus handicap, the slope adjustment RAISES his handicap.  i.e. it makes it higher.  e.g. if the slope is 150, 113/150 = .75.  That raises a +4 differential to +3.  It means the bogey golfer gets one stroke less against an expert -- on a course that gives him a whole lot of trouble in the first place.  

At the same time, the higher the slope, the more that LOWERS the bogey golfer's differential.  He gets fewer strokes, on a course where he needs more.  Again take a course with slope = 150.  A 24 differential goes down to just 18.  This player gets 21 strokes against the guy with the +4 differential.  

Now say those two players play a course with 113 slope.  This course should be much easier for bogey relative to the expert.  He should get fewer strokes.  But there's no adjustment to either player's differential.  So bogey instead gets 24 + 4 = 28 strokes.  

On the easier course (relative to the expert) he gets 28 strokes.  On the harder course he gets 21.  This is built into the formula, at least as I see it in your post.  

Am I missing something here?  

[David Ober]

Even in 2014 people will hand over personal information if they think it gains them status. At best this is a social experiment proving the vanity of low handicap golfers. At worst it is the start of a complicated identity stealing process that will lead to some sort of thievery. Just last year a far less sophisticated method was used to con courses along the east coast.  Did I miss the purpose of this survey?

LOL

"Personal" information like name and state and handicap. You, sir, are an interesting--and cynical--cat. Not that there's anything wrong with that! 

Do you think there would have been a different response if he asked for information on "mid-cappers"? Say a subject line like: "All you 10 - 20 handicappers, please read" and then asked for the same information. Do you think that no one would have responded? Of course people would have responded. Do you think the respondents would be doing so out of "vanity"? I'm guessing not. Or would it be due to some other character defect, perhaps?

I'd be happy to do the research for you. I could post on another golf board and see if any mid-cappers respond to the same question....

[David Ober]

Oh, and by the way:

Index: Ranges from 1 to +2 depending on the season
State: California
Best part of game: Anything inside 130 yards, but especially full wedge play from 80 to 130

[John Kavanaugh]

We all know that low handicappers are more respected in club circles than hacks.  This information, along with a simple search on this site, could be used to create false identities for multiple nefarious scenarios.  Of all the times I have called a course cold and been welcomed as a guest I have never been asked to show identification.  Who couldn't buy a pair of nice golf slacks and travel the country as Michael Moore?  Do people from Maine have an accent?