The Rose Ruling: What say ye?

[Tom Bacsanyi]

If you haven't been following, Justin Rose addressed a chip the other day behind 18 green.  He was about to draw the club back when he quickly stepped away.  He brought Sergio over and indicated that the ball may have moved.  They both watched one of the screens surrounding the green which had the replay, and to their eyes, it did not move.  Rose played out and made 4.  In the scoring tent, the rules officials concluded that video evidence showed that the ball did move and he was assessed two strokes for playing the ball from the wrong place.  However, they later discussed that it required the use of sophisticated video technology (the so called HD rule) to see the move, and rescinded the penalty.  Rose is now at -10 and two shots off the lead... 

My questions would be:

Why would Rose quickly back off unless he perceived movement?

Why couldn't they apply the "HD rule" right off the bat?

[Ronald Montesano]

My questions would be:

Why would Rose quickly back off unless he perceived movement?

He thought it may have moved. This is so common in golf, when heat, light, wind and other factors impact your eyes. Also, if the ball oscillates but does not leave its position, it is not penalized.

Why couldn't they apply the "HD rule" right off the bat?

This one would have made more sense, but it was probably not one person's call.

[Tom_Doak]

Bobby Jones would have just called the penalty on himself, and told Sergio to add the penalty on the way to the scorer's tent.  Getting a ruling on this sort of thing is silly; the player is the only one who really knows.  The rule that we have to be caught cheating by low technology is indicative of where society is heading.

The situation does bring up a Rules question I encountered while playing today.  I was in the native sandy rough at Tara Iti playing with my crew, and when I went to move some plant material near the ball, one of the loose impediments pulled on some native grasses -- which caused the ball to rotate in place a bit, but not change position.  Is that a penalty or not?  It did not matter for our match, I'm just curious because I've never seen it before.

[MClutterbuck]

The question is, how do you properly replace a ball that might have moved a fraction of a milimeter, so much so that you are not really sure if it moved or not. One stroke penalty is for the ball having moved (provided you caused the movement and not wind) and the other for not replacing. It seems the margin of error in replacing is as big as the actual movement, or more.

This rule has to change when the movement is so small.

[Bill_McBride]

If it stays in the same place but turns, is that a penalty?

I agree that Rose should have just called a penalty on himself, but that almost never happens anymore.  Usually it's some viewer from his BarcaLounger!

[MClutterbuck]

Bobby Jones would have just called the penalty on himself, and told Sergio to add the penalty on the way to the scorer's tent.  Getting a ruling on this sort of thing is silly; the player is the only one who really knows.  The rule that we have to be caught cheating by low technology is indicative of where society is heading.

The situation does bring up a Rules question I encountered while playing today.  I was in the native sandy rough at Tara Iti playing with my crew, and when I went to move some plant material near the ball, one of the loose impediments pulled on some native grasses -- which caused the ball to rotate in place a bit, but not change position.  Is that a penalty or not?  It did not matter for our match, I'm just curious because I've never seen it before.

I dont think it is because I believe it has to leave its original position, horizontally or vertically.

[Ronald Montesano]

That's the oscillation point, Mr. Jones. I presume you called the penalty on yourself? Wouldn't want to depend on low technology (like GCA) for clarification...

[Jud_T]

Tom,

The ball is allowed to oscillate as long as it returns to its original position.  Only if it jiggles and ends up in a different position is it a penalty.

[Carl Johnson]

If it stays in the same place but turns, is that a penalty?

I agree that Rose should have just called a penalty on himself, but that almost never happens anymore.  Usually it's some viewer from his BarcaLounger!

To my way of thinking, TV replays, HD, super slow motion and such, and sports writers/anouncers wanting to get in on the act, have made the application of the rules so hyper technical that if the golfer is going to be scrutinized in that way, why should not the pro take advantage of the technology if it might help him (or her).  I'd like to think that if Rose was playing in Bobby J's day, he would have called the penalty on himself and moved on.  Moreover, I'd assume that if Jones were playing today, he would have done exactly what Rose did.  It is a different day.  No fair judging Rose by what Jones would have done in his day.  By the way, I did not see the incident on TV and didn't know of it until I read this post.

[Tom_Doak]

I am traveling and did not see the incident either, and did not mean to single out Justin Rose ... this is a universal problem in pro golf today. 

I don't believe that if Bobby Jones were alive today he would wait for the replay, but, he was playing as an amateur, and as such his conscience and his bank account were never in conflict.

RonMon:  I did not report a penalty on myself because we were not keeping score.  [There are only 7 holes that are playable now, and we were just out for fun.]  I would have reported it as a penalty otherwise, though I did have my doubts about the Rule.

[Ronald Montesano]

TD-thanks for taking my ribbing in the good-natured way it was intended.

Jack Nicklaus going to the extreme of hovering his club before all shots sounds better and better with each brush with a moving ball we read about or see.

[Paul Gray]

In the pursuit of fairness (yes, fairness) the rules of golf were designed to provide equitable solutions. Surely that's exactly what this new rule has provided.

[Greg McMullin]

I wonder what Tiger would have done?

[Tim_Cronin]

I wonder what Tiger would have done?

Tiger would have yelled at the rules guy in the trailer when told to add 2.

[Ronald Montesano]

Two new m@r@ns...one who trolls with a Tiger comment and another who takes the bait with a baseless supposition.

[Ryan McLaughlin]

Good analogy that leads to a different generational discussion.  Bobby would not have called a penalty if he felt it was just a shimmer that caused him to think the ball moved or simply oscilatted and his playing partner agreed.  Justin lives in the HD world where some couch surfer can call it in so he brings his partner in.   I feel if partners agree all is well then move on....spirit of the game.   So why did Rosey bring it up...cuz he was scared some couch surfer would call it in so they are all gun shy. 

[Sean_A]

Golfers have been backing off balls since day one - sometimes because they think the ball has moved.  Its hard for me to understand why people don't realize that we all have different levels of eyesight.  What seems obvious to some is far from the case for others.  If it takes 30 minutes with high def equipment to determine a ball moved - no penalty and rightly so.

Ciao

[Martin Toal]

Seems like an uncommonly sensible rule to me. Something had to be done to reduce the effect of pedants and rules nazis calling these rules violations.

Perhaps they should add another rule that once the card is signed and accepted by the scoring marshal, it is closed.

[Thomas Dai]

The important aspect to me is that when Justin Rose thought that something had gone amiss he didn't make any assumptions, instead he spoke with his playing partner, one of whose roles is to protect the rest of the field.

atb

[Patrick_Mucci]

TD-thanks for taking my ribbing in the good-natured way it was intended.

Jack Nicklaus going to the extreme of hovering his club before all shots sounds better and better with each brush with a moving ball we read about or see.

Bill Campbell, not Jack Nicklaus initiated that technique.

If a ball oscillates or moves but returns to it's original position there is NO penalty.

MClutterbuck,

If the ball moves from it's original position, it is NOT replaced.

Golf is a game of integrity.
Tom Doak's reference to Bobby Jones is an example of the personification of integrity..

Just as the "hitter" knows, the "golfer" knows.

[Adam Clayman]

TD, Moving attached vegetation is not kosher, so you well may have been in violation.

This situation encompasses what's gone wrong with golf over the decades. Chasing the almighty $ has given these guys justification for treating the rules so disrespectfully. That translates to the Mannies, too.

[Michael Moore]

If the ball moves from it's original position, it is NOT replaced.

Pat -

If a ball is moved by an outside agency, by the player (which is the case we are discussing here), by his partner, by either of their caddies, by the opponent (or his caddie or equipment), by a fellow-competitor, (or his caddie or equipment), or by another ball, it must be replaced.

The only exception to these rules is when the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

[Anthony Butler]

The words "I'm not sure if it moved" are the key to this situation.

Unless the people involved can say "I'm sure it did not move" you can't have any confidence the situation was handled correctly.

The PGA Tour is run by the human equivalent of a weasel, so what can you expect?

[Dan_Callahan]

With new technology and the ability to be absolutely sure of the facts, the mindset of the player has shifted. At least on Tour, the typical pro won't assess a penalty until watching a replay and being sure that a rule was violated.

What I teach the kids on my high school golf team is very different, and is probably closer to what the typical pro would have done 30 years ago. I tell my kids that if they think the ball moved, it moved.

I'd wager that your first impression is correct more often than it is wrong. And if you're going to be wrong one way or the other, I'd rather coach a team that is known for calling penalties on itself rather than one that is known for trying to get away with stuff.

[Dave McCollum]

OK, I’ll be this morning’s moron.  This whole incident is so silly it illustrates why so many think golfers are nerds.  Grown men agonizing for hours over whether the ball moved a pixel or two.  Did he improve his lie?  Was the shot the same?  Was there any advantage gained?  Play it as it lays and get on with it.  This rule and the resulting character test about whether to call a penalty on yourself strikes me as some sort of self righteous act of faith to determine if you are a true believer.  I never understood how the spirit of the game depends on such a trivial test.  Nobody was trying to cheat.  Hit the ball and play golf.