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Sven Nilsen

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Labours of Love
« on: May 11, 2014, 12:06:44 PM »
With the US Open coming up at Pinehurst, I started thinking about courses that had the benefit of the constant attention of their architects.  As Chris Buie has diligently tracked through his enlightening posts on the topic, the brilliance of Pinehurst does not lie in the initial design, but rather in how it evolved.

You could say Augusta National has a similar history.  Although Mackenzie would exit the scene, both Bobby Jones and Clifford Roberts were integral to its conception, and were around to shape its development over the years.

What other courses had the benefit of an architect that was able or allowed to tinker and improve over the subsequent years from its creation?  Oakmont and Fownes?  Garden City GC and Travis? 

How much time did Maxwell spend at Prairie Dunes?

How much tinkering did CBM do at NGLA over the years?

Pinehurst is of particular interest too me, as its architectural history stands as a testament to how Ross himself grew as an architect.  It is perhaps the only example of a course in which you can track the entire history of its designer, as well as the changing ideals and needs of early golf in the United States. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2014, 03:28:35 PM »
Sven.  Probably more than you think.

At Olympic, Sam Whiting is co-credited with the building of the course and acted as the superintendent for 20+ years.

Pasatiempo, Mackenzie lived and eventually died on the course.

Jack Neville at Pebble Beach is another.  He ended up selling real estate in the area and eventually assisted in the renovation before the US Open in 1972. 

As for moderns, Cal Club, Kyle Phillips was made an honorary member and is now very active in the upkeep of the course.









Sven Nilsen

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2014, 03:39:51 PM »
Joel:

Olypmic and Whiting seem to fit the mold.

I wouldn't include Pasa in the conversation, just because of the relatively short period of time between its construction and Mackenzie's passing.

As for Pebble, does Neville's work on the course rise to the level of involvement of the other guys mentioned here?  Was he continually making suggestions, or did he just offer his insight in subsequent years when other big names were brought in?

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2014, 05:55:39 PM »
Neville was the original architect and provided the routing for Pebble Beach.  He said in 1969 that Pebble was 95% the same as when he built it.  The big boys came much later and Nicklaus changed the 5th hole probably 10 years ago.

The USGA wrote a very well done article about him.

http://www.usgamuseum.com/about_museum/news_events/news_article.aspx?newsid=113

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2014, 06:04:49 PM »
Joel:

I wasn't questioning Neville's involvement in the original design (something I am well aware of).  My point was that he did not tinker with the course over the years, ala Ross at Pinehurst.

The point of the thread was to examine courses that involved under the watch of a consistent guiding hand.  The fact that Pebble brought in a slew of different names over the years seems to me to be a case of too many involved hands for it to have been the labor of love of one particular vision.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim Martin

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2014, 06:12:35 PM »
Ross spent an awful lot of time tinkering with Essex County Club over a period of years and there are few that would argue with the notion that it is one of his finest works. Living on the course over a 4-5 year period a few paces from the 15th tee allowed him unfettered access to make changes as he saw fit. Even after he left he made many return visits as the course was not completed until 1917.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2014, 06:24:48 PM »
Pete Dye has been changing his tournament courses for years. He didn't live at any of them, but was constantly altering his own work for tournament and resort purposes.

There are a number of clubs that the Jones family has been altering for years as well.

In general, the UK has a much greater history of "tinkering" and altering their courses. Part of it no doubt came from the evolution of the ball and early equipment. I'm sure Braid was doing the same at Walton Heath.


Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2014, 06:25:47 PM »
The Fownes' and Emil Loeffler at Oakmont.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2014, 06:26:11 PM »
What about Jack at Murifield Village?

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2014, 06:26:56 PM »
Thats a good point and even though he lived there, was a great player, probably didn't tinker much with the course.  Chandler Egan renovated the course before the 1929 US Amateur and I don't recall if Neville was involved.

The other architects that may fall into your category are both Max Behr and George Thomas in Southern California.    

Mac Plumart

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2014, 06:37:06 PM »
I think it's neat to look at the modern courses like this.

Muirfield Village already mentioned

Ballyneal changing grasses on the greens

Neat to see this stuff in action right now
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2014, 06:59:37 PM »
Mac:

Funny thing is, Dismal White is probably a better candidate for this than Ballyneal.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ed Oden

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2014, 12:00:32 AM »

How much time did Maxwell spend at Prairie Dunes?


Sven, I don't think Prairie Dunes was Maxwell's Pinehurst.  While it took roughly 2 years to complete the initial nine holes and Maxwell did travel back and forth between Ardmore and Hutchinson during that period, I haven't seen anything to indicate he did any work there after the club opened in September 1937.  Rather, Maxwell's "labor of love" was undoubtedly Dornick Hills.  He conceived the club with his wife, built the course on his property, presided over the club for most of his life, tweaked the course for over 20 years, and is buried (along with his wife) on its grounds.

PS - You could make a good argument that ANGC was Maxwell's second labor of love since he worked on it pretty much every year from 1935-1941.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2014, 12:10:16 AM »
Mac:

Funny thing is, Dismal White is probably a better candidate for this than Ballyneal.

Sven

Sven...

Yes.  Jim Colton started a thread about that very topic awhile ago.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2014, 12:11:24 AM »
TPC Sawgrass qualify for this concept?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2014, 12:13:14 AM »
Haven't some of the tweaks at Kingsley been documented on this site as well?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

David_Tepper

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2014, 02:10:37 AM »
Pete Dye has worked on Crooked Stick multiple times over the years. He is a member there.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2014, 03:16:06 AM »
Would John Sutherland at Dornoch fit the bill? Or is he DQ'd for not being a legit architect?

atb

Sean_A

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2014, 04:41:43 AM »
What about Stuart Paton at Woking?  Fergusson at New Zealand?  Aber at Addington (though I think Aber protected what was desigend)?

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2014, 09:54:43 AM »
How much time did Maxwell spend at Prairie Dunes?

Sven -

I'd add the obvious comment that the elder Maxwell built only 9 of the holes at Prairie Dunes.

The course on the ground today is as much the product of Press as it is Perry -- with ongoing stewardship from Bill Coore and team.

Cheers, Andrew

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2014, 10:28:56 AM »

How much time did Maxwell spend at Prairie Dunes?


Sven, I don't think Prairie Dunes was Maxwell's Pinehurst.  While it took roughly 2 years to complete the initial nine holes and Maxwell did travel back and forth between Ardmore and Hutchinson during that period, I haven't seen anything to indicate he did any work there after the club opened in September 1937.  Rather, Maxwell's "labor of love" was undoubtedly Dornick Hills.  He conceived the club with his wife, built the course on his property, presided over the club for most of his life, tweaked the course for over 20 years, and is buried (along with his wife) on its grounds.

PS - You could make a good argument that ANGC was Maxwell's second labor of love since he worked on it pretty much every year from 1935-1941.


Ed:

"What a stupid I am."  Can't believe I didn't include Dornick Hills.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2014, 10:34:14 AM »
What about Jack at Murifield Village?

Jaeger:

Good example.  And probably a case like ANGC where the existence of an annual tournament almost demands that the course be continually updated.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2014, 10:37:10 AM »
Would John Sutherland at Dornoch fit the bill? Or is he DQ'd for not being a legit architect?

atb

If we're letting Fownes in, Sutherland probably qualifies as well.  I'd say he was more of a steward of the course than an architect, which is fine for our purposes here.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Dave McCollum

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2014, 11:03:27 AM »
Every course is a labor of love and every course evolves and changes over time.  Just as with the design and construction, every course is a collaborative effort involving many people.  Attributing credit, good or bad, is always somewhat arbitrary and subjective.  This applies to the superintendent and the guys taking care of the grass as they are responsible for most of the evolution.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Labours of Love
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2014, 11:41:30 AM »
Dave:

There are examples where the mind and hand of one person stands out throughout the years.  Pinehurst is one such instance.

That is what I was trying to get at here.

As for whether or not credit is either arbitrary or subjective, when the hole on the ground resembles that drawn by an architect on paper, I don't think arbitrariness or subjectivity comes into play.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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