MacKenzie & Ebert their best work?

[Tony_Muldoon]

I don't believe I've ever played one of their courses?


Should they get the credit for Skibo which seems to be the outstanding candidate? The original routing was done whilst they were still working with Donald Steel but they have pointed out they've been working on the course throughout.

I understand from people on here that they are lovely chaps and indeed one of them, wearing a Dornoch sweatshirt, held a door open for me at Brancaster some years ago.  But how does their track record stack up?

[Ben Stephens]

Hi Tony,

I have briefly had a discussion with Tom Mackenzie before by email - he seems to be a nice chap.

The only Mackenzie and Ebert fully designed course I have played is Heythrop Park - the first few holes warm up nicely and are quite generous and through the halfway point 9-13 it seems to stutter as the rhythm and flow seems to go a bit off line as well as long walks from greens to next tee especially on the back nine.

The 11th hole is a very strange hole a short par 5 which uses a mid iron off the tee for a safe tee shot then followed an another mid iron then a short wedge from the right place on the fairway to a green which is tighly protected by trees. There is a better hole but from another standpoint it may have been planning rules or client request not to interfere the long view to the stately building.

The green complexes are interesting at Heythrop.

I have also seen their work at Lytham prior to the Open being held there in 2012 especially the redesigned 7th green which was of good standard and I just wished they made it slightly more quirky like the original green which had a bank to the left side of the green which feeds the balls towards the flag if it was in the middle at the front.

[Adam Lawrence]

Much of Tom and Martin's work has been renovation. Heythrop Park, which I like very much, is Tom's work. I shouldn't speak for Martin but having spent a certain amount of time with him, I think he might name Goodwood in Canada, which he built for Gordon Stollery of Angus Glen, as some of his best work (I haven't seen it).

Both of them are, I think, very talented architects. Since I spent time with him during the initial recreation of Askernish back in 2006', Martin has been high on my list of designers who would do something really good if the right project came along. And a number of good judges have told me that Tom's reworking of Skibo is top drawer.

[Niall C]

Tony

I met Tom back in 2000 when I did the Masters course and he showed us round Craigielaw which is one of his courses. Interesting day. He more or less he acknowledged that he was perhaps pushing the boundaries on that one in terms of green contours and while I think it's fair to say that this style of greens don't always gel with the surrounds, I really like the course. The course has its limitations, generally the turf isn't as good as Kilspindie over the wall but still well worth the play. Also has one of the most inviting short par 4's in Scotland in the opening hole.

Brunston Castle - I think this was Tom's first full design when he was working for Steel. It was also where David Nelson cut his teeth in golf course construction. Played about 15 years ago and what I remember of it was that it was heavy going in terms of the conditions (mair sand Nelson, mair sand !). Haven't been back.

He also did work at Silloth when I was a member there. The new 5th green is his design and I have to say that I'm not a fan of that bit of work. I think it was ill conceived and at the behest of the head greenkeeper and some time club champion who complained that the old green was too low lying and therefore prone to being affected by the water table. In all the years was there I can't say I noticed. I think the real reason behind it was that the big hitters including the greenkeeper could easily carry more of the angle off the tee thereby routinely giving themselves mid to short irons in to the old green and therefore they wanted to push the green back. The obvious thing to do would have been to push the tees back (back tees already existed so easy to do by enlarging for "normal" play) to preserve the diagonal carry off the tee.

Apart from losing the old green what I don't like about the new one is that it's positioned too close to the OB on the right and also the spectacle bunkers guarding about 50 yards in front. The bunkers could easily be replaced by a a single bunker on the side of the mound that would have allowed the well played run up. But enough of my thoughts on gca.

I don't think I've played anything new of Martin's but I have played his changes to Turnberry which generally worked well and I've seen what he's doing at Troon which I think will be well appreciated also. He's also playing a part in in persuading the club to restore the Portland back to something like the MacKenzie course it was. Apart from that I've been in contact with both of them of late regarding Tom Simpson and work he did at Carnoustie and elsewhere. There's no doubt in my mind that they are as passionate as any on here about gca and with a great deal of talent.

Niall 

[Ian Andrew]

I really like Goodwood north of Toronto.
I much prefer the work to many of the other modern courses around here.

[Ronald Montesano]

I really like Goodwood north of Toronto.
I much prefer the work to many of the other modern courses around here.

http://canadiangolfer.com/g4g/2010/09/07/course-review-goodwood-golf-club/

[Tony_Muldoon]

I really like Goodwood north of Toronto.
I much prefer the work to many of the other modern courses around here.

Ian, Can you tell us more about what you liked? 

I know nothing about golf where you live and it souldns a bit like "damming with faint praise".

[Niall C]

Robert's review of Goodwood was interesting, particularly the comment about the par 3's being the same distance. If remember rightly Craigielaw has 5 par 3's and one time I played it recall using the same club at all the par 3's, however that was undoubtedly down to the bizzarre tee placements.

Niall

[Mark Saltzman]

I really like Goodwood north of Toronto.
I much prefer the work to many of the other modern courses around here.

Ian, Can you tell us more about what you liked?  

I know nothing about golf where you live and it souldns a bit like "damming with faint praise".

Hi Tony,

I can't speak to Goodwood as I haven't seen it (very few have).

If you're interested, I've posted photos of several of the top modern courses around Toronto:

Devil's Paintbrush (no. 2 Canadian Modern): http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2012/02/devils-paintbrush-golf-course-review.html

Beacon Hall (no. 4 Canadian Modern): http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2012/01/beacon-hall-golf-club-review.html

Coppinwood (no. 7 Canadian Modern): http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2012/02/coppinwood-golf-club-course-review.html

[Steve Okula]

MacKenzie & Ebert worked pro-bono in resurrecting Askernish, the old Tom Morris course in the Outer Hebrides, which sounds like an interesting project.

http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/paskernish.html

Has anyone seen it?

[Thomas Dai]

What courses have they done under under the radar, ie under other peoples 'names'?
atb

[Frank Pont]

Martin has been high on my list of designers who would do something really good if the right project came along.

Adam, how do you think Trump Aberdeen would have been different if Dawson would have pointed The Donald to Martin Ebert instead of Dr. H?

[Ronald Montesano]

the mention of the par three holes playing equally brings to mind my greatest frustration. i wish that there were a law in the land of golf whereby a course with four par threes would be required to have one play at <120, another between 130 and 150, a third at 170-190 and a fourth above 205. this law would take into consideration the conditions, pin placements and the topography.

i always found RTJ to be a particular offender when it came to matching four par 3 holes at 170-185.

[Adam Lawrence]

Martin has been high on my list of designers who would do something really good if the right project came along.

Adam, how do you think Trump Aberdeen would have been different if Dawson would have pointed The Donald to Martin Ebert instead of Dr. H?

It's a very good question, give that Hawtree and M&E have shared the R&A-backed design work for several years, but unfortunately I think it's also unanswerable except in very general terms.

I think Martin E is more of a risk taker than Martin H. I look at the work he did at Turnberry before the last Open there - the central bunker on 10, the shifting of the 16th fairway - and what he's been doing this winter at Troon. How would that have manifested itself at Balmedie? I don't and can't know, I'm afraid.

[Sean_A]

What about the revamped Buddon Links at Carnoustie?  I never had much desire to play the course (I never hear anybody talk about it), but maybe its much improved?  Mind you, I really like the Burnside so it would be difficult to skip a game there for a course designed by Aliss and Thomas. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Turnberry.

[Ben Stephens]

Turnberry.

Yes they did redesign Kintyre course with Donald Steel and Martin Ebert did most of the Ailsa modifications prior to the 2009 Open.

Another course is Stapleford Park which is not far from where I live and I assume that Tom Mackenzie did most of the work there.

I have heard of Tylney Park in Hampshire which was recently redesigned by M&E.

[James Boon]

http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/Courselist.html

The courses with a # are the ones they've done since being on their own.

Interesting that Askernish is listed as a new course and a Major Redesign  

I've played Stapleford and Breadsall Priory but both were done when at Donald Steel so not sure if its necessarily a true example of their work, but both are pleasant enough parkland courses without being anything out of the ordinary. Martin Ebert worked on Askernish but then a few others were consulting as well, and it is a somewhat special case, so again not sure its a true example of their work???

Cheers,

James

[Ally Mcintosh]

James,

It was Martin Ebert who worked at Askernish.

My observation from afar is that they have a slightly different design style from each other and that both of their styles have developed and progressed since they were designing for Donald Steel. They both started with him around 1990 (at least Tom did) and we were fully in swing with "80's / 90's design" at that time, containment mounding et al...  Most of the recent stuff I've seen - again often from afar - I've really liked, especially Tom's work...

The photos of his renovation up at Skibo look really good... Unfortunately, even if I was granted a walk around, I'm not sure I have the time to see it when I'm doing my hit and run in Dornoch in early June...

Ally

[Niall C]

Ally

These days with the right to roam legislation they can hardly stop you provided your sensible about it. I suggest maybe a call ahead or visit them in person and explain you're a gca wanting to have a look see and promising not to get in anyones way. As it is I did a quick reccy a couple of years ago as the course is split on either side of a local road with all the new holes (I think) immediately on each side of the road so its not difficult. Suggest its worth a look see. The new holes look really good and one of the short(ish) par 4's looks spectacular.

Niall

[James Boon]

Ally,

Thank you. I know that and yet something went amiss between brain and fingers typing. Edited!

Cheers,

James