OT rules question....

[Jon Sweet]

Had an interesting one come up this weekend, asked a number of pros and haven't quite gotten a definitive answer. I will pain the picture best I can.
A creek routed underneath a fairway, at the other side of the fairway the creek comes out of a drain/culvert/pipe with a diameter of roughly 18 inches or so give or take and feeds into a small pond.
The hazard surrounding the pond is red and the edge of it is marked by a red stake on top the edge of the rough about a 1/2 yard from the mouth of the drain/pipe/culvert.
Now, the ball managed to get far enough inside the drain to be beyond the red stake on top of the edge of the rough.
We could clearly see the ball, however, it was out of reach of a club and arm.
Again, not in margin of hazard, clearly identifiable, inside of a man made drain/culvert/pipe.
So... what is the ruling?

[jeffwarne]

It all comes down to a pretty clear decision/precedent which is located in very small print on the last page of the decisions book.
and you'll need a PGA Member secret decoder ring to read it.




It depends upon whose ball it is.

[Pete_Pittock]

I can tell you what it was a few years ago.
If it is identifiable (different than being seen) as being the ball in question (based upon what you have laid out in the premis) the ball is within an immovable obstruction (the metal culvert) and not within the defined area of a penalty area (red hazard). The nearest point of relief would be directly above the position of the ball, and relief would have been taken from that point of reference

Whoever does the marking of the course needs to plainly mark whether or not a bridge or something similar is within a single penalty area or it divides a penalty area into two sections.

[Kalen Braley]

Had an interesting one come up this weekend, asked a number of pros and haven't quite gotten a definitive answer. I will pain the picture best I can.
A creek routed underneath a fairway, at the other side of the fairway the creek comes out of a drain/culvert/pipe with a diameter of roughly 18 inches or so give or take and feeds into a small pond.
The hazard surrounding the pond is red and the edge of it is marked by a red stake on top the edge of the rough about a 1/2 yard from the mouth of the drain/pipe/culvert.
Now, the ball managed to get far enough inside the drain to be beyond the red stake on top of the edge of the rough.
We could clearly see the ball, however, it was out of reach of a club and arm.
Again, not in margin of hazard, clearly identifiable, inside of a man made drain/culvert/pipe.
So... what is the ruling?

My first question would be:

- Average club length is about 40 inches
- Average arm length is about 30 inches
Total length = 70 inches or just shy of 6 feet.

So it was at least 6 feet away, maybe more, in a dark pipe?  I'm curious how the ball was positively identified from that distance and lighting conditions?

[Jon Sweet]

Had an interesting one come up this weekend, asked a number of pros and haven't quite gotten a definitive answer. I will pain the picture best I can.
A creek routed underneath a fairway, at the other side of the fairway the creek comes out of a drain/culvert/pipe with a diameter of roughly 18 inches or so give or take and feeds into a small pond.
The hazard surrounding the pond is red and the edge of it is marked by a red stake on top the edge of the rough about a 1/2 yard from the mouth of the drain/pipe/culvert.
Now, the ball managed to get far enough inside the drain to be beyond the red stake on top of the edge of the rough.
We could clearly see the ball, however, it was out of reach of a club and arm.
Again, not in margin of hazard, clearly identifiable, inside of a man made drain/culvert/pipe.
So... what is the ruling?

My first question would be:

- Average club length is about 40 inches
- Average arm length is about 30 inches
Total length = 70 inches or just shy of 6 feet.

So it was at least 6 feet away, maybe more, in a dark pipe?  I'm curious how the ball was positively identified from that distance and lighting conditions?

That iPhone flashlight is fire

[Jon Sweet]

I can tell you what it was a few years ago.
If it is identifiable (different than being seen) as being the ball in question (based upon what you have laid out in the premis) the ball is within an immovable obstruction (the metal culvert) and not within the defined area of a penalty area (red hazard). The nearest point of relief would be directly above the position of the ball, and relief would have been taken from that point of reference


I would have to look to see if the reference point moved to the end of the culvert since that time.


Whoever does the marking of the course needs to plainly mark whether or not a bridge or something similar is within a single penalty area or it divides a penalty area into two sections.

An aside, ball went into this area during summer, caddie reached his hand in to grab it, snake was in there.

[A.G._Crockett]

Had an interesting one come up this weekend, asked a number of pros and haven't quite gotten a definitive answer. I will pain the picture best I can.
A creek routed underneath a fairway, at the other side of the fairway the creek comes out of a drain/culvert/pipe with a diameter of roughly 18 inches or so give or take and feeds into a small pond.
The hazard surrounding the pond is red and the edge of it is marked by a red stake on top the edge of the rough about a 1/2 yard from the mouth of the drain/pipe/culvert.
Now, the ball managed to get far enough inside the drain to be beyond the red stake on top of the edge of the rough.
We could clearly see the ball, however, it was out of reach of a club and arm.
Again, not in margin of hazard, clearly identifiable, inside of a man made drain/culvert/pipe.
So... what is the ruling?

We had this exact situation rather often on the 10th hole at a club where I was a member, and the ruling was that the pipe is part of the hazard, similar to a bridge over a hazard. I don’t know if that was a local rule or a decision, but I don’t see how it could be otherwise.

[JMEvensky]

I can tell you what it was a few years ago.
If it is identifiable (different than being seen) as being the ball in question (based upon what you have laid out in the premis) the ball is within an immovable obstruction (the metal culvert) and not within the defined area of a penalty area (red hazard). The nearest point of relief would be directly above the position of the ball, and relief would have been taken from that point of reference


I would have to look to see if the reference point moved to the end of the culvert since that time.


Whoever does the marking of the course needs to plainly mark whether or not a bridge or something similar is within a single penalty area or it divides a penalty area into two sections.

An aside, ball went into this area during summer, caddie reached his hand in to grab it, snake was in there.

Just a guess but wouldn't the dangerous situation (the snake) trump everything else, i.e. free relief?

[JohnVDB]

If you can identify the ball and determine it is outside the penalty area and in the General Area, you would take relief above that point.  If you can’t find the ball or identify it, it is lost in the condition and relief is taken at the point where it entered the pipe.  Since this is in the penalty area, there would be no free relief.


The dangerous situation wouldn’t apply if the ball was in the pipe in the penalty area since you don’t get free relief from an abnormal course condition in a penalty area so you’d be taking relief outside the PA (unless the snake came out to join you).  If the ball was found and ID’Ed in the GA, you wouldn’t need to take relief for the dangerous situation since you’d be dropping above that point on the ground.

[mike_beene]

You had me at “snake” I will drop where I see fit.

[Jason Thurman]

An aside, ball went into this area during summer, caddie reached his hand in to grab it, snake was in there.

Just a guess but wouldn't the dangerous situation (the snake) trump everything else, i.e. free relief?

Only if you positively identify the snake. Not enough just to see it. You ain't getting free relief for a corn snake in any game I play in.