[Lou_Duran]

Jim,

I am a big believer in having more information as opposed to less.  However, if one's glasses have a prescription to confirm ingrained biases, more is not particularly helpful.

As I noted earlier, I've played over 50% of the courses in most top 100 lists.  In NY, off the top of my head, Winged Foot W & E, Quaker Ridge, Fenway, Bethpage Black & Red, NGLA, Shinny; a couple in NJ  (Trump Bedminster Old, Ridgewood); Yale, Lehigh, and a few others; all the top CA courses; most of the ones in Chicago; all but Canterbury and Brookside in Ohio; Cyrstal Downs, all the Bandon courses, Chambers Bay, Sahalee; Sand Hills, both Dismal River courses, Wild Horse (a personal favorite because of the way it was built and the fantastic value it provides).  It is not that I am ignorant of what is out there in the "old world" as opposed to perhaps having a different orientation, aesthetic, sensibility.

Perhaps long after we're gone and UT-Austin's endowment fund leaves Harvard's in the dust, Texas golf will get its due.  After all, Shinny, NGLA, Cyrstal Downs were once off the radar.  Perceptions of what is "great" change.  I still can't get over how a picture of a can of soup can be worth millions.  Maybe the zeitgeist crafted by future opinion makers will be kinder to our courses.  Or maybe not.      

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou,

Of the courses you've played in the greater NY area, which courses in Texas are superior to the one's you've played ?

Mike Nuzzo,

Which course/s in Texas is/are superior to Sebonack, Friar's Head and Hidden Creek ?

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, the Dallas Olympic Committee will use those same stats to attempt to lure the 2020 games. If they succeed and if the 110 degree side of the average sits on the games they will understand that some days in the 80s do not cancel the heat stroke received on the 100s days.

When we moved from San Francisco to Dallas in August 1978, the highs were above 100* for forty days straight.   Thank heavens for AC!

It's not the averages that are important but the outliers. 

[Lou_Duran]

Bill,

We moved from Columbus to Arlington in Sept. 1978.  Those first couple years were doozies- the 1979 ice Cotton Bowl, the 40+ days over 100* in the summer of 1980.  Not ideal conditions to contemplate the finer points of gca.  I played a lot of golf at Walnut Creek CC in Mansfield, a course whose soils were far better suited for growing cotton than common Bermuda.  We had cracks in the ground that not even the jackrabbits would attempt to hop.  Funny looking back, it didn't seem all that bad.  They say one gets used to the heat.   For me it wasn't bad until I hit 50 or so.  Now I hate it.  We go to a dozen or so Texas Rangers games each year and it is not unusual for the temperature to be in the upper 90s at 10:00 p.m.  It is no wonder we lose our pitchers to free agency.

Pat,

The courses rated in the top 30 are better than any of the Texas courses.  There is one on that list that I don't understand its high reputation, and I actually prefer a number of Texas courses over it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou,

Don't keep us in suspense, out with it man !

Bill,

I'm sure that Bowling Green has it's outliers as well, along with oppressive humidity.

While I didn't play Streamsong in the summer, I'd have to imagine, if not hope, that the wind is present most of the time.

How about Dallas ?

[Steve Lang]

   something to ponder...

Chicago, IL / Houston, TX
 
Population
2.7 million / 2.15 million
 
Median HH Income
$38,600 / $37,000
 
% African-American
38.9% / 24%
 
% Hispanic
29.9% / 44%
 
% Asian
5.5% / 6%
 
% Non-Hispanic White
28.7% / 26%
 
Pretty similar until you compare the following:
 
Chicago, IL / Houston, TX
 
Concealed Carrygun law
no / yes
 
# of Gun Stores
0 / 184 - Dedicated gun stores plus 1500 - legal places to buy guns- Walmart, K-mart, sporting goods, etc.
 
Homicides, 2012
1,806 / 207
 
Homicides per 100K
38.4 / 9.6
 
Avg. January high temperature  (F)
31 / 63

... must be correlation with global warming or concealed handguns...

[Bill_McBride]

Lou,

Don't keep us in suspense, out with it man !

Bill,

I'm sure that Bowling Green has it's outliers as well, along with oppressive humidity.

While I didn't play Streamsong in the summer, I'd have to imagine, if not hope, that the wind is present most of the time.

How about Dallas ?

Dallas?  Stultifying.  Not a lot of wind when it's really hot. 

When I left San Francisco I had never worn a glove.  After two months I have never not worn a glove.  Dallas was a brutal transition. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Pat you Moron
How many times do you need to hear about the quality of Wolf Point?
Cheers

[Jud_T]

Steve,

So by your logic if we open a gun store on every corner in Chicago and pass a concealed carry law, homicides in the city will drop to zero.  Thanks for solving our problem!  You forgot to add the stat about how many of the Chicago homicides were committed with guns originally purchased in other states, like Indiana and, well, Texas.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat you Moron
How many times do you need to hear about the quality of Wolf Point?
Cheers

Mike,

I know, but Wolf Point wasn't built between 1920 and 1960 and I haven't played Wolf Point, whereas I have played Preston Trail and BrookHollow

[Jim Hoak]

I think the comments on here about the Dallas and Texas weather are overstated.  Yes, it can be hot in the summer--but not that humid.  Yes, it can be cloudy, windy and stormy in the Spring, but there are many beautiful days as well.  (Watch the Nelson this weekend.)  Yes, it can be icy in January, but you can still play golf almost every weekend.  Where in the continental US do you have pretty good weather 12 months a year--San Diego, Santa Barbara and Monterey, CA.?   I don't know anywhere else.
I moved to Dallas from the upper Midwest 30+ years ago, and I can tell you the weather here sure beats that--especially if you're a golfer.  Nothing's perfect.  But it isn't that bad here!  Everyone gripes about their weather.  But if you're from anywhere North, and you have a winter like this past one, you'd sure think the Dallas weather was pretty terrific.
And the lifestyle beats that of any of the other biggest 10 cities in the US.  (A debatable point, but one of city pride.)

[mike_beene]

I think the spring weather on Dallas is great. Only August is tough.I can't remember a Saturday this year that weather kept us from playing, and about 55 degrees is my cold limit. Plus, the bent greens are soft in August but great the rest of the year save the March punchings. The perception from the north that golf is a summer sport probably hurts what people think of our courses.

[Lou_Duran]

Steve Lang,

Will you cut that out!  We have enough transplants already who don't check their attitudes and politics at the border while jamming our roads and golf courses.  When Houston's weather comes up, I tell the story of playing the Jackrabbit course at Champions first off on an early June morning, riding, and being completely soaked through with perspiration before the turn.  Despite a long shower and applying various remedies available in its superb locker room, I suffered from the worst case of jock rot for days.  I still can't believe it, but two sets of friends who moved to Houston and one to Atlanta from Dallas all report that the climate is better at their new locations.

My wife's former boss questioned our sanity while hosting me for a farewell round at The Golf Club in 1978, noting that of all the places in the U.S. he could live, Dallas was "hot as hell" and it wouldn't be a consideration.  The summer of 1980 proved him right on the first and probably sensible on the second.

Jim Hoak, Mike Beene,

Same admonition to you.  Yes, when the temperature climbs, the humidity goes down, and so does the wind, making golf a bit easier, but eliminating all relief.  And come June, the clouds and rain disappear for three months, but that damned Bermuda loves the sunlight, heat, and irrigation water, so whatever help our games receive from calm conditions, thick rough and grainy greens more than take it away.  As to the lifestyle, we have several reminders here- crappy weather (tornadoes, hail the size of softballs, extreme heat, droughts, ice; aren't we about due for an invasion of cicadas, and how about those damned crickets?) bad schools, uninsured residents, low wages, rude drivers, bunches of right-wing whackos armed to the teeth- that paint a different story.  Have played 100+ rounds annually a number of times.  Been in the DFW Metroplex for 33+ years; will likely be buried here.  And I don't even escape for a few weeks to CA, Santa FE, or HI.  Go figure.

[Steve Lang]

Steve,

So by your logic if we open a gun store on every corner in Chicago and pass a concealed carry law, homicides in the city will drop to zero.  Thanks for solving our problem!  You forgot to add the stat about how many of the Chicago homicides were committed with guns originally purchased in other states, like Indiana and, well, Texas.

Jud, You're welcome...    

interesting reading at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. declared in Brown v. United States (1921) (256 U.S. 335, 343 (16 May 1921)), a case that upheld the "no duty to retreat" maxim, that "detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife".[5]

p.s. ... and what is that stat you refer to?

[Patrick_Mucci]

What puzzles me is as follows.

Texas has plenty of wealthy folks.

Texans always like to take pride in what they do.

Distance isn't the impediment to Texans that it is to folks in the NE.

So, why hasn't one of those guys grabbed a top architect, hunted for some good land and built a world class course ?

That's essentially what Dick Youngscap did at Sand Hills

And, you'd think that once one guy did that in one city, other wealthy Texans in other cities would try to "one up" him, creating a number of exceptional courses.

[Bill_McBride]

What puzzles me is as follows.

Texas has plenty of wealthy folks.

Texans always like to take pride in what they do.

Distance isn't the impediment to Texans that it is to folks in the NE.

So, why hasn't one of those guys grabbed a top architect, hunted for some good land and built a world class course ?

That's essentially what Dick Youngscap did at Sand Hills

And, you'd think that once one guy did that in one city, other wealthy Texans in other cities would try to "one up" him, creating a number of exceptional courses.

It's actually kind of nice to see you stuck for an answer......

[Steve Lang]

  Maybe Herb Kohler should come down to ...................

* Big Bend
* Blackland Prairies
* Brazos Valley
* Canadian River Valley
* East Texas
* Edwards Plateau
* Llano Estacado
* Piney Woods
* Red River Valley
* Rio Grande Valley
* South Plains
* Southeast Texas
* Texas Coastal Bend
* Texas Hill Country  
* Texas Panhandle
* Trans-Pecos
* West Texas

?  is anyone that stupid ?

Lou , is there a Dallas weather derangement syndrome carried by the dust up there?

its been pretty nice here since last October... here's year to date

[Douglas Kelley]

Plus, the bent greens are soft in August but great the rest of the year save the March punchings. The perception from the north that golf is a summer sport probably hurts what people think of our courses.

Mike -- I think people tolerate the soft bent greens all summer around here due to the myopic belief that everyone (that matters) leaves during August anyway.  My understanding is that Royal Oaks is regrassing its greens with a dwarf bermuda as part of its renovation, and it will interesting to see if that creates any momentum amongst the other clubs to follow. 

It is ironic and unsuprising to me that many of the actors in this debate (Hoak, Beene, Duran, Samuels) are all Northern immigrants to Texas.  Count me as another midwesterner that found his way to Texas twenty years ago.

[mike_beene]

Actually I am not a northern immigrant. My family has been around the Dallas area since the 1800s. The city is much changed ( and much larger) than it was in my growing up years.

[Douglas Kelley]

My mistake

[Lou_Duran]

Steve Lang,

Read between the lines.  I am tired of paying tolls on the road to sit in traffic during rush hour.  I am also aware where the state is heading politically in a few years and I can't go back to Cuba or want to move to Utah.  After I establish that Texas weather is insufferable, I am going to start preaching Civics- the imperative that those hailing from blue states return with their replenished bank and brokerage accounts to offer their comrades in need a helping hand.

Mike Beene,

I knew there was something about you that I liked.  A true native Texan.  In my over 30 years here, I think you might be the second one in Dallas I've met.

Douglas Kelley,

Royal Oaks is going with MiniVerde, the current ultradwarf of choice in these parts.  Ditto for one my favorite courses in the area, Texas Star (if Mike Cirba is lurking, don't fall off your chair, the course has matured- or maybe it is me- and it has grown on me).  I hear that Bent Tree is talking about it.

For courses in river bottoms with trees and poor air circulation, Bermuda is probably the way to go.  Me, I much prefer to put up with soft bent greens for three months than all the maintenance and performance issues of the alternative.  My home course which prides itself on its TifEagle greens aerated three weeks ago and they're still bumpy and inconsistent.  It will be another month before they're good, and shortly after, they'll punch them again.  Between aerating, verticutting, weekly sanding, winter dormancy when they get fast and won't hold a line, I doubt we get two months of really good green conditions.  Aerated bent greens seem to recover much faster and they are really good here in the winter.  I hope that Royal Oak's conversion is not replicated widely, but it probably will be at all but the top tier clubs. 
 

[Steve Lang]

  LOU, I THOUGHT YOU WERE RETIRED?  WHAT'S THE HURRY?

I WASN'T BORN HERE EITHER, BUT I GOT HERE AS SOON AS I COULD...

AND YES , THOSE THAT CAN LEAVE IN SUMMER , DO...  COME ON UP TO THE 40TH PARALLEL IN MICHIGAN THIS JJULY AND AUGUST AFTER THE 5TH MAJOR, AND BEAT THE HEAT WITH US! 

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