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Sam Morrow

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #150 on: May 09, 2014, 11:06:15 AM »
Sam--I guess "great" is a matter of opinion, but I have played Austin GC.  I enjoyed it very much, but to call it "great" by any standard would be a major stretch.  I guess you could argue that part of the problem is that opinion leaders on courses are on the coasts--but that wouldn't explain the reputation of Sand Hills and other new "great" courses.  No one comes to Texas just to play any of the courses you mention.  Still a mystery to me why this is true about my home state.
I know plenty of people who've come just to play those 3, I've played with many of them.

Jud_T

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #151 on: May 09, 2014, 11:21:51 AM »

But, Bill, not to take up Pat's fight, but what does your argument have to do with the fact that no great courses--measured objectively--have even been built in Texas in the last 20 years--no Bandon, no Sand Hills, no Friar's Head.  That can't be because of remoteness in this day and age.  Maybe it explains the '20's and '30's--but what about recently?
There's something more there.

Jim,

How many GREAT courses have been built in the "New" Golden Age in this country?  20?  25?  30?  That means the same could be said for half the states in the union, including places like Illinois.  So basically Texas missed the first golden age for all the aforementioned reasons, and they just haven't been lucky enough to hit paydirt in the new golden age yet.  Find a site, get investors and hire a GCA!  Here you go:

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/golf-the-lost-mackenzie
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Lou_Duran

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #152 on: May 09, 2014, 11:27:58 AM »
A couple of observations that may provide some insight.

Texas did not have a major league pro sports franchise until 1960.  And there is no elite Ivy league caliber college or university in this state despite its size, population and wealth.  (I suppose Rice may qualify.)

It may be that while these things were originally formed and founded there was no compelling reason to form and found these institutions in Texas.  

The state's two flaghip state universities - UT-Austin and A&M - are extremely wealthy with enormous resources and have more recently expended those resources in an attempt at greatness but by most meaures have fallen short.  Sure they are very good but I doubt many consider them great.

This place just does't have or inspire greatness to my mind.  I have lived here for almost thirty years and I just don't see it much here.

There really may be something to the notion of a cultural inferiority complex.  The natives may actually get it, and perhaps their use of a  Texas "nationalism" is a compensating mechanism.  But no matter how much they display Texas symbols and trinkets, no matter how much they tell others and themselves that this place is great does not necessarily make it so.

And, so it seems, when it comes to golf courses too, greatness has, as of yet, just not been in the cards.

Why?  Who can say for sure, but certainly much presented in this discussion helps to explain: history, geography, demographics, weather, poiltics, economics, whatever.  It is certainly, like most complex matters, a combination of many things.

Having two kids graduate from UoT-Austin, let me beg to differ a bit and offer an alternative perspective.  Of the Ivy League schools, all but Cornell (and look at the two well-known GCAers from there!  ::) ) were founded before there was a U.S.  Harvard is nearly 250 years older than UT!  Do you think that being the recipient of such great wealth for so many more years, not to say anything about all the influential opinion makers they've nurtured in all facets of life, might have a bit to do with our perceptions of culture, politics, golf courses, etc.?  While I do fear that immigration, domestic and foreign, will eventually californicate Texas, give the UT system, Rice, SMU, and Baylor a couple hundred years and see how they compare.  There are programs at UT today that don't take a back seat to those at the Ivies, and that's before talking price/value.

As to the psychoanalysis, perhaps Mr. Mucci might benefit from a session, but in my 35 years here, I see little evidence of an "inferiority" complex.  What Pat says about Texans being members of some of the top golf clubs in the country is true.  Many of the "old money" families in Fort Worth, a great city that still holds dear its true Texan culture, also have apartments in NYC, Paris, London, etc., and their kids attend the finest colleges of the world.  There is much to learn and enjoy from the old.  These folks could live anywhere, yet, despite the weather and very ordinary aesthetics- it is definitely too damned hot here- they remain.  Go figure.  Maybe the problem is not with what is lacking in Texas, golf, culture, the quality of higher education, etc., but how we choose to define "great" based on how we are trained and, in no small part, where we hail from.

Jim Hoak,

How can something so subjective as one's preference for golf architecture be measured "objectively"?  I've heard it say that the criteria used by the magazines is to help its raters HOW to think as opposed to WHAT to think.  Don't believe me if you want, but even within the specific criteria employed by GD and GW, assessing shot values or applying the "walk-in-the-park" test is more of a Justice Stewart's "know it when I see it" approach than one derived by totaling a well-defined checklist  (there are raters who rely on memory and don't take notes; at an outing many years ago when I was a GW rater, an experienced colleague noted in a public discussion that he "marked down" a course- happens to be on the front page of the DG currently- because it had insufficient well-defined, "properly" maintained women's tees; I could give many more examples).

I can tell you that your definition of "great" is substantially different than mine.  I am curious, where are you from?  What course (s) were important in your formative years in the game?  What % of Golfweek's two Top 100 courses or Golf Digest's Top 100 have you played?  Where do you play today (if you care to reveal- don't worry, I've been "educated" by the opinion leaders on the proper etiquette in seeking access)?  Do you or have you played competitively?
  

JWL

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #153 on: May 09, 2014, 11:40:25 AM »
I agree with Mr. Morrow, and I would offer Carlton Woods, Cordillera Ranch and Boot Ranch as examples of very good golf in Texas.  Of course, like most on this board, I have my own prejudices.  :)

Sam Morrow

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #154 on: May 09, 2014, 11:44:37 AM »
I agree with Mr. Morrow, and I would offer Carlton Woods, Cordillera Ranch and Boot Ranch as examples of very good golf in Texas.  Of course, like most on this board, I have my own prejudices.  :)
thanks, I haven't played either Cordillera or Boot Ranch though both look fantastic.  In thinking about Carlton Woods I think the Fazio Course might be better than Dallas National. I wouldn't argue with anyone who said otherwise at least.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #155 on: May 09, 2014, 12:08:42 PM »
I agree with Mr. Morrow, and I would offer Carlton Woods, Cordillera Ranch and Boot Ranch as examples of very good golf in Texas.  Of course, like most on this board, I have my own prejudices.  :)
thanks, I haven't played either Cordillera or Boot Ranch though both look fantastic.  In thinking about Carlton Woods I think the Fazio Course might be better than Dallas National. I wouldn't argue with anyone who said otherwise at least.

Oh come on Jim, let's argue.  Though I disagree about Dallas National, all the courses you noted are well placed in my Texas Top 10.  Escondido and Briggs Ranch, which has had some financial issues, are also among my favorites.  Please look at your IM and drop me a note if you can.

Lynn Shackelford,

You of all people making the argument that size doesn't matter!

Actually, in Texas, because the wind blows, the terrain is so rugged, and there are so many natural drainage areas, the scale must be bigger.  Perhaps a couple more years in Austin will help you expand your horizons (probably not enough to get you to Wolfdancer) and understand that golf can be excellent even on courses where the temperature is often well above 80, a 10 mph wind is exceptionally calm, and there is not kikuyu or eucalyptus to keep your foul balls in play.

Perhaps the new Dallas At&T course designed by your friends will provide the answer to the puzzle.  They certainly have the design talent and aesthetic sensibilities, and the money is there to do what's needed.

I've been hoping that Tom Doak gets a project up here as well.  His work at Rawls, IMO, was outstanding, yet it doesn't receive the popular acclaim some think it deserves.  It is hard for people to like playing in hot, windy, rugged conditions.  Certainly, the experience is very different than that I enjoyed with Tiger Bernhardt at Riviera and with Geoff Childs and Mike Cirba at SFGC (where Geoff insisted that we shower though not a drop of sweat was shed by anyone, including our caddies).   

Douglas Kelley

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #156 on: May 09, 2014, 12:36:43 PM »
Isn't the development of a "great" course the product of lots of things, including location, resources, expertise, luck, and a benevolent dictatorship.  The "great" modern courses -- Bandon, Sand Hills, Friars Head, Ballyneal, Sebonack, others -- generally seem to have uniquely good land with sand dunes, ocean views, or both, that a strong-willed owner with significant resources brought in Coore/Crenshaw, Doak, or like-minded architects, and let them ply their trade.  With the potential exception of Wolf Point, which I haven't seen, none of the "very good" modern Texas courses have been built on land of the quality found in the Sandhills, Oregon, or Long Island.  In the case of Dallas National, which was a unique location, Fazio built a Fazio-course, and it just doesn't resonate with people to the level of "greatness." Until someone puts together a Texas project with all the common attributes of a great course, and fails, I'll continue to chalk up to a failing of circumstances rather than a Texas thing.

I'll be very curious to see how the Coore/Crenshaw Trinity Forest project plays out, but I have concerns because there are so many constituencies involved that I can't help but expect the final product, or the management of the final product, to suffer from the lack of one clear voice in charge.

mike_beene

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #157 on: May 09, 2014, 07:11:48 PM »
In my opinion the Dallas National property is too severe. It makes for a tough walk. Other than the 5th there is something very disappointing about the par 3s and par 5s. Lou likes it a lot more than I do but I have it in my top 10 in Dallas.

Sam Morrow

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #158 on: May 09, 2014, 07:27:51 PM »
In my opinion the Dallas National property is too severe. It makes for a tough walk. Other than the 5th there is something very disappointing about the par 3s and par 5s. Lou likes it a lot more than I do but I have it in my top 10 in Dallas.

I agree on the property at Dallas National, if I had to walk I think I'd walk in at 14. I think 3 is a good subtle par 3, really works with the lay of the land. 5 Is pretty and just flat out hard. I kind if like 13 and the whiskey tee or whatever they call it is cool. 17 Is a little blah. On the 5's I like 2 for the same reason I like 3, the green has that slope with the land. 4 Is probably my least favorite hole on the course. 10 Is pretty but nothing special. 18 Green is cool.

It's a very, very good golf course, I think Lou might have said it was his favorite in Texas. Have you been up to Old American yet?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #159 on: May 09, 2014, 07:44:01 PM »
Somewhere I have an old Bizarro cartoon where the guys are out playing golf with the heat waves, dead cactus, etc. and the caption is "There's a reason West Texas isn't a great golf resort area" or something to that effect.  As per the cartoon, maybe the "what's the point?" mentality prevails.

The difference between good and great can be a pretty fine line, and maybe the factors all mentioned above just conspire to keep the very best courses from being built.  Also, in some cases, the Texas mentality of throwing money at it and maybe being a bit pretentious just doesn't bode all that well for building a great, restrained course.  Sometimes, you can feel it in design when folks are trying too hard.

Lastly, maybe I missed it, but no one has mentioned Whispering Pines in Trinity.  It is pretty darn good, although the river holes just aren't as pretty as some other water holes in the world.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sam Morrow

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #160 on: May 09, 2014, 07:59:29 PM »
Somewhere I have an old Bizarro cartoon where the guys are out playing golf with the heat waves, dead cactus, etc. and the caption is "There's a reason West Texas isn't a great golf resort area" or something to that effect.  As per the cartoon, maybe the "what's the point?" mentality prevails.

The difference between good and great can be a pretty fine line, and maybe the factors all mentioned above just conspire to keep the very best courses from being built.  Also, in some cases, the Texas mentality of throwing money at it and maybe being a bit pretentious just doesn't bode all that well for building a great, restrained course.  Sometimes, you can feel it in design when folks are trying too hard.

Lastly, maybe I missed it, but no one has mentioned Whispering Pines in Trinity.  It is pretty darn good, although the river holes just aren't as pretty as some other water holes in the world.

Give me a little credit, I already tossed Whispering out there. I think the river holes aren't very pretty because it's the middle of a swamp.

Mike_Young

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #161 on: May 09, 2014, 10:15:55 PM »
I heard that the main reason there were no better courses in Texas was that the Texas architects just did not have it....huge nerd factor going with most of them.... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sam Morrow

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #162 on: May 09, 2014, 10:17:42 PM »
I heard that the main reason there were no better courses in Texas was that the Texas architects just did not have it....huge nerd factor going with most of them.... ;D

Just when I think you're better than that..........

mike_beene

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #163 on: May 09, 2014, 10:26:18 PM »
Sam, I have not played Old American but have heard good things.It is a long way out from Dallas but that is no excuse.I have played the replica course next door.

Sam Morrow

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #164 on: May 09, 2014, 10:27:58 PM »
Sam, I have not played Old American but have heard good things.It is a long way out from Dallas but that is no excuse.I have played the replica course next door.

Excuses, it's a short drive up the toll road and almost to Oklahoma.

mike_beene

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #165 on: May 09, 2014, 11:01:14 PM »
There are no short drives

Steve Lang

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #166 on: May 09, 2014, 11:08:46 PM »
 8)  First joke I heard about TX after moving here in 1991...  y'know the sun is going to burn out in 4 billion years?  y'know what that means??  ... they'll be finishing the freeways in the dark!  WE do have some nice big freeways and sometimes traffic jams!

I don't think any ordinary texans care about classic courses.. other than for bragging rights.. I met a grocer from central tx who's been to TOC several times and all over scotland 6 times, no brag, just fact

who cares about classic courses you can't play being in a city, region, or state?,   not the ordinary texan, but he may travel to find a hidden gem or just to play with friends like anyone

who cares about destination golf when there's a place(s) close by to tee it up, and good enough weather 8-12 months a year?  I think I had 160 Pub + Private courses listed around Houston at one time.... I have access to 8 courses through my WCC membership and another handful via friends.. i'd rather play than hold out for some classic experience.

Rustic Canyon, Barona Creek, Rawls, Black Mesa, Ballyneal, Wild Horse, The North Platte Airport for fried chicken, Chambers Bay, Gold Mountain,  Whispering Pines, Pine Dunes, TKC, Pinehurst and such places become destinations when one has means or just happens by..  just met a californian that came to Horseshoe Bay, TX as a destination to play the RTJ "rock" courses, imagine that!

better courses?  that's a real good question historically
present day, I don't think anyone really needs new courses, just time to play
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Lou_Duran

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #167 on: May 10, 2014, 04:05:04 PM »
In my opinion the Dallas National property is too severe. It makes for a tough walk. Other than the 5th there is something very disappointing about the par 3s and par 5s. Lou likes it a lot more than I do but I have it in my top 10 in Dallas.

I've walked DN.  A member friend, north of 76 years of age, walks and carries regularly (he can also beat me like a drum).  Maybe you and Sam have grown soft in your prosperity.

DN is built on very unusual land for north Texas with a 160' elevation change, but only on a couple holes (#9 and #14) the climb might be a bit severe.  Some say that the start is rather ordinary- a mid-length par 4 into the predominant wind, a downwind reachable par 5 for the long hitter, and a shortish downwind par 3 with a very deceptive green.  I believe it is a wonderful start similar to those of classic courses praised for offering a "welcoming handshake".

I have issues on two holes: #11 where the fairway bisects wetlands which the designer was prevented from filling or moving as was done summarily during the "Golden Age" (the green complex has been changed somewhat so as not to reject approaches to the right half), and #12, originally a very slight R-t-L dogleg into the wind with an awkward angle off the tee requiring a hook into a fairway dropping somewhat steeply to the right (reverse camber) and into the junk.  New tee boxes have been built to the right, making it easier to hold the fairway and effectively turning #12 into a straight hole.

The most common complaint I've heard is that the greens are too severe.  They are complicated and combined with some brawn tee to green, it is one of the more difficult courses for me in north Texas (unless playing the bunny tees which some here prefer).  IMO, DN can hold a major tournament without many modifications or tricking it up.  To the extent that those doing the ratings prefer more "playable" club courses, DN will not fare as well.

Re: Old American, it is 10 minutes from my house in Baja Oklahoma.  I like the course enough that I am still considering joining, though the site is super windy, the first four par 3s go in very similar directions with Lake Lewisville as background, and it is a very difficult walk.  For being marketed as a throwback to the origins of the game and the architects having such a large canvass, the last two issues are troublesome  (it is essentially cart golf with considerable green to tee separation).  Three or four hole corridors are also extremely tight with considerable slope, bunkering, and junk collecting the ball, which can make for a long day out there.  The course is considered to be very difficult and it has suffered from maintenance issues, probably because of drought conditions during much of its young life, its very poor soils, and the wind seems to howl nearly always.  In some ways, it is very Texan, brawny and rugged.  The green complexes are large but not overly complicated.  If it matures gracefully it might be a course of some consequence.         

mike_beene

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #168 on: May 10, 2014, 09:14:17 PM »
Lou,I am admittedly soft. However, as my chosen method of diabetes management is walking golf courses instead of insulin, walk ability is even more important to me. Also, push carts are much easier on my softish knees. I don't think Dallas National has push carts or that you would want to push them up those hills. By the way, the toughest push cart hills in Dallas are the Dallas CC bridge over Mockingbird and the climb out of the Northwood tunnel. You hit both of those twice in a round and it feels like you are back in football running hills. Would you really want to play Dallas National twice a week? I couldn't explain the golf ball bill at home.

Sam Morrow

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #169 on: May 10, 2014, 11:42:46 PM »
Lou,

I've always been soft and never prosperous.

mike_beene

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #170 on: May 11, 2014, 12:25:40 AM »
And I forgot the push up the hill on the third hole at Stephens. Flattish or rolling properties just work better.

Jim Hoak

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #171 on: May 11, 2014, 11:20:23 AM »
For what it's worth--The Dallas Morning News today had their annual list of best courses in Texas.  Just another list.
Whispering Pines #1, Dallas National #2, Colonial #3, Cordillera Ranch #4 and Preston Trail #5.  Brook Hollow #11 and Austin Golf Club #15.
I can't find Wolf Point on the Top 100 list anyway--nor on any of the supplemental lists.  Maybe I'm not seeing it.  I had never heard of it and was thinking I had fallen asleep with everyone here mentioning it.

Sam Morrow

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #172 on: May 11, 2014, 11:21:59 AM »
Wolf Point won't be ranked,  it's the owners private course.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #173 on: May 11, 2014, 11:52:54 AM »
Mike Nuzzo would know better than I, but I think it could be ranked if the owner sponsored (as some private clubs do) a raters day and got enough raters out there.  I bet nearly everyone would take him up on the offer!

I am a panelist, although I didn't get my vote in this year, having gotten a job in China, and taking off a week before my ballot was due.  Not real sure of all the number nuances, but I will say that not voting (and I never vote my courses with 9's or 10's, although I suspect some courses try to stuff the ballot box) seems to have my courses dropping this year.  I don't know if that 7-8 points is enough to sway the numbers or not.  It will be interesting to vote next year and see if they come back up.

It is a lot more numerical and fair now than in early renditions, where a good Italian lunch for the sports editor allegedly got you moved up the rankings quite quickly......in other words, the Texas Good Old Boy system.  There are still some politics played out, as in almost any ranking system.  I just don't play that game very well......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_beene

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #174 on: May 11, 2014, 05:55:24 PM »
People are people, politics get personal,ego gets in the way. Take Texas out of the paragraph and you are describing just about anywhere at any time. The grass looks greener on the other side and living somewhere else must be better. I think that is just human nature.