[BCowan]

Was Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Inverness, Merion, WFW, Chicago, Oak Hill and I could keep going built on sand?  So sick of sand snobs, are we to build cities around sand dunes for golf courses?  Or fly to desolate places for sandy soil golf courses??? 

For someone who has their panties in a twist about the cost of private golf, what do you think the maintenance budget at the above courses is to achieve approximate F&F playing conditions of you-know-what? 

Was Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Inverness, Merion, WFW, Chicago, Oak Hill and I could keep going built on sand?  So sick of sand snobs, are we to build cities around sand dunes for golf courses?  Or fly to desolate places for sandy soil golf courses??? 

For someone who has their panties in a twist about the cost of private golf, what do you think the maintenance budget at the above courses is to achieve approximate F&F playing conditions of you-know-what? 

Many top course's annual dues are very low.  Installing good drainage lasts a long time!  There budgets are fine, if they roll their greens, have good air flow (no trees around greens).  The reason they are high is due members green outlook.  Oakmont is very F&F and drains like a champ in heavy clay!  No panties in a twist, I am principled and have common sense.  I know where the high maint numbers come from and it isn't due to lack of sandy soil, that is minimal difference. 

[Jud_T]

Most truly great courses have some combination of the following:

1.  Built on sand. Augusta ?
2.  Temperate climate that allows for cool season grasses.Augusta ?
3.  Very interesting natural topography/landforms.
4.  Ocean views (not my personal criteria). Pine Valley
5.  Wind (see #4)Pine Valley

OK, I know, Winged Foot and Chicago Golf.  

And a zillion more

These aside, for someone who's only spent a brief amount of time in Texas, it seems they have a lot of #5, but are perhaps a bit lacking in 1-4.  [
If you've only spent a brief amount of time in Texas how can you claim that they are lacking in 1-4 ?
On what basis do you make that claim ?/color]

Hence the word PERHAPS

Have you ever played or walked Brook Hollow ?   Preston Trail ?    Pretty good topography, no ?[/color]

So you're saying these could have been great in the right hands?

Is the real issue simply that the Dallas, San Antonio and Houston metro areas are simply not particularly interesting based on the above criteria, so it shouldn't be a huge surprise that the state isn't teeming with Doak 8s and 9s?

How can you state that the Dallas area doesn't have interesting topography ?

I didn't state it, I asked a question, but perhaps you're eyes are failing in your dotage   ...

Have you played Hollywood ? Winged Foot ?  GCGC ? Westhampton ?  Basically flat courses, absent the phantom topography you claim is lacking in the Dallas area!?

I have played Winged Foot and Westhampton.  Westhampton has a great location and is very good, but I'm not sure it qualifies as great.  Not sure Hollywood qualifies either, although I haven't played it.  Weren't we supposed to have a match from the tips at Winged Foot?

[Jud_T]

Was Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Inverness, Merion, WFW, Chicago, Oak Hill and I could keep going built on sand?  So sick of sand snobs, are we to build cities around sand dunes for golf courses?  Or fly to desolate places for sandy soil golf courses??? 

For someone who has their panties in a twist about the cost of private golf, what do you think the maintenance budget at the above courses is to achieve approximate F&F playing conditions of you-know-what? 

Was Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Inverness, Merion, WFW, Chicago, Oak Hill and I could keep going built on sand?  So sick of sand snobs, are we to build cities around sand dunes for golf courses?  Or fly to desolate places for sandy soil golf courses??? 

For someone who has their panties in a twist about the cost of private golf, what do you think the maintenance budget at the above courses is to achieve approximate F&F playing conditions of you-know-what? 

Many top course's annual dues are very low.  Installing good drainage lasts a long time!  There budgets are fine, if they roll their greens, have good air flow (no trees around greens).  The reason they are high is due members green outlook.  Oakmont is very F&F and drains like a champ in heavy clay!  No panties in a twist, I am principled and have common sense.  I know where the high maint numbers come from and it isn't due to lack of sandy soil, that is minimal difference. 

I'm waiting with baited breath for you to name the top 50 courses in the country that aren't built on sand that have low annual dues...

[Nigel Islam]

Pat, how many times have you played the following? Brook Hollow; Northwood;Preston Trail; Lakewood; Cedar Crest; Dallas CC; Colonial;Shady Oaks. Where do you rate them?[

Mike,

Brook Hollow 4 times and I spent an entire week playing, walking and riding the course
Preston Trail 1 time

I liked both courses.

They wouldn't make the top 25 in the greater NYC Metropolitan area

Pat I would be interested to know your top 25 Greater NYC area?

[Jim Hoak]

Several comments--
1)  Brook Hollow is built on sandy soil.  It is also the only (I think) course in Dallas with pine trees.  This just points out the diversity of terrain in Dallas and in Texas in general.
2)  I have played all of the courses that Jud T asked about.  I think they prove my point and quandary--they are all reasonably good courses, but none would come close to being considered great.  Pat's point that they wouldn't be in the top 25 in Metropolitan NY may be a slight exaggeration, but not much.
3)  I think that maybe the shifting nature of Texas population--from isolated to more national and diverse--may explain some of this.  Certainly the percent of true Texans in Dallas is declining--I would think to well below half today.  But Dallas has always looked East and prized Eastern things.  (HL Menken said, "Ft. Worth is where the West begins, and Dallas is where the East peters out.")  But even if Dallas was isolated during the Golden Age of course construction, how do you explain the lack of great quality in modern Texas courses?  Currently the 4th biggest Metropolitan area in the US--and still without a great golf course.

[Nigel Islam]

Pat to answer your question with regards to Kentucky earlier. Kentucky just doesn't have many courses period. I forget the number, but its somewhere in the neighborhood of 275. I think that includes par 3 and executive courses. The state has a single Ross, a single Travis and a smattering of Langford's. (and a few faux Maxwells)  Tennesse is a similar story. Georgia ad the Carolina's fared better probably due to ocean and climate. Not sure what happened to Virginia in the Golden Age.

Is Louisville CC a Travis, or Langford? I've seen it credited both ways. Have not played it, but looks like a Travis.

Indian Hills and Audubon are the only two that I know are definitely Langford. In Lexington, there is 1 Ross, 1 Bendelow, and every other course was built after the golden age. Buck Blankenship probably designed the most courses in the state.

As I understand it Louisville CC was built in 1910 on its present site. I think Travis was the original architect, and L&M did a renovation. I would assume around the same time as the work they did at Audabon. They also did the original Bowling Green CC and some stuff in Evansville and Henderson.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Most truly great courses have some combination of the following:

1.  Built on sand. Augusta ?
2.  Temperate climate that allows for cool season grasses.Augusta ?
3.  Very interesting natural topography/landforms.
4.  Ocean views (not my personal criteria). Pine Valley
5.  Wind (see #4)Pine Valley

OK, I know, Winged Foot and Chicago Golf.  

And a zillion more

These aside, for someone who's only spent a brief amount of time in Texas, it seems they have a lot of #5, but are perhaps a bit lacking in 1-4.  

If you've only spent a brief amount of time in Texas how can you claim that they are lacking in 1-4 ?
On what basis do you make that claim ?/color]

Hence the word PERHAPS

Have you ever played or walked Brook Hollow ?   Preston Trail ?    Pretty good topography, no ?[/color]

So you're saying these could have been great in the right hands?

No, that's not what I'm saying.
I asked you a question, don't answer it with a question, answer it in a candid matter.
You stated and implied that the terrain in Dallas wasn't conducive to building great golf courses, so I want to ascertain your
degree of familiarity with those particular sites.

You were the one who established the five criteria and stated that the Dallas area didn't have 1-4

Is the real issue simply that the Dallas, San Antonio and Houston metro areas are simply not particularly interesting based on the above criteria, so it shouldn't be a huge surprise that the state isn't teeming with Doak 8s and 9s?

How can you state that the Dallas area doesn't have interesting topography ?

I didn't state it, I asked a question, but perhaps you're eyes are failing in your dotage   ...
I don't think so.
I asked you how you can claim that Dallas didn't have interesting topography, which is what you clearly implied.

It's not just that they built a course on a particular site as much as why they chose that site.

One only has to look at Sand Hills, certainly not a course that's in the middle of a significant, dense population, or close to any meaningful population center.  Are you telling me that there are no sites, removed the same distance from cities in Texas, that Sand Hills is removed from a city or cities in Nebraska ?

Have you played Hollywood ? Winged Foot ?  GCGC ? Westhampton ?  
Basically flat courses, absent the phantom topography you claim is lacking in the Dallas area!?

I have played Winged Foot and Westhampton.  
Westhampton has a great location and is very good, but I'm not sure it qualifies as great.

How is Westhampton a great location ?
It's a flat course with an unusual routing
You have to cross two roads in the first five holes, three roads in the first 9 holes and four in the first 17 holes.

Both are pretty flat.
The kind of terrain that Winged Foot and Westhampton are found on can be found in abundance in Texas, unless you consider 270,000 Square miles confining. [/size]

Not sure Hollywood qualifies either, although I haven't played it.  
Weren't we supposed to have a match from the tips at Winged Foot?[/size]

I'm waiting for the stakes to rise so that I can pay the tolls....... and more

[Bill_McBride]

Come on Patrick, Sand Hills is a red herring.  It's not easy to get to now from the major population centers.  Imagine getting there in 1925.

[Lou_Duran]

This isn't rocket science.  Only one of the top 10 courses in the GD list (Sand Hills) comes from outside what Pat Mucci/GW call the "Classic Era"; only 10 in the top 30 and 27 in the top 60.

Holding climate, terrain, and the environment constant, either the architects of that time were that much better, clients had more money or different objectives, things didn't cost as much in relative terms, golf courses take long periods of time to mature and "earn respect", or there weren't as many regulatory impediments.  Of these, I suspect that only the last two have significant impact.

Comparing the top 30 on the GD list to the second 30, the three criteria with the highest average variance are the most subjective (Memorability, Ambiance, and Aesthetics, 6.8% higher) and, in my opinion, the more dependent on regional factors, history, and demographics (44 are located in earlier developed areas).  For me, the three are also of lesser importance in terms of playing the game of golf.  Resistance to Scoring, Conditioning, Shot Values, and Design Variety show smaller differences (4.4% higher).

As alluded to earlier regarding cool weather grasses, of the top 60 courses, only one has greens grassed with something besides bent (Kiawah Ocean- paspalum).  Texas' only course in GD's Top 60, holding the last spot, is Dallas National.  It too has bent greens, three different zoysias for fairways, tees, and roughs, and some of the best topography in Texas.  The soils were literally nonexistent and had to be hauled to the site.  The wind blows and the environment is very rugged.  Having played half of the courses on the major lists, I am at a loss that Dallas National is not held in higher regard.  I know that some of the touring pros prefer Vaquero (west of the airport) because it is more representative of the courses they play on tour, particularly the less complicated green complexes.  Maybe DN is just too hard for the raters.

BTW, when people say that Brook Hollow was built on sand, we are not really talking sand belt material.  At best, it is a sandy loam with quite a bit of clay mixed in.  It's been awhile, but I remember a red tint in the soil.  None of Tillie's Texas courses hold a candle to his work at SFGC and near NYC.  I doubt that he checked his talent at the border when he came here.

[BCowan]

Was Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Inverness, Merion, WFW, Chicago, Oak Hill and I could keep going built on sand?  So sick of sand snobs, are we to build cities around sand dunes for golf courses?  Or fly to desolate places for sandy soil golf courses???  

For someone who has their panties in a twist about the cost of private golf, what do you think the maintenance budget at the above courses is to achieve approximate F&F playing conditions of you-know-what?  

Was Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Inverness, Merion, WFW, Chicago, Oak Hill and I could keep going built on sand?  So sick of sand snobs, are we to build cities around sand dunes for golf courses?  Or fly to desolate places for sandy soil golf courses???  

For someone who has their panties in a twist about the cost of private golf, what do you think the maintenance budget at the above courses is to achieve approximate F&F playing conditions of you-know-what?  

Many top course's annual dues are very low.  Installing good drainage lasts a long time!  There budgets are fine, if they roll their greens, have good air flow (no trees around greens).  The reason they are high is due members green outlook.  Oakmont is very F&F and drains like a champ in heavy clay!  No panties in a twist, I am principled and have common sense.  I know where the high maint numbers come from and it isn't due to lack of sandy soil, that is minimal difference.  

I'm waiting with baited breath for you to name the top 50 courses in the country that aren't built on sand that have low annual dues...

Already named top 50 not built on sand!  Do you think those top 50 courses have grand Clubhouses that have budgets that dwarf the maint budget.  Do you think the ''Greens Speed Arms Race'' might add to the maint budget?  Do you really think your maint. budget at Kingsley would be the same if the course was located in Cinci on the same exact soil?  Do you think top end clubs tend to compete with each other on how much they spend on Maint???  I'm not naming private club info, remember that would break your first rule of Jud Hills GC...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Come on Patrick, Sand Hills is a red herring. 

Not really.
I'm sure that getting to Denver, Tulsa and the West Coast were just as difficult

It's not easy to get to now from the major population centers. 

That was to my point.

Imagine getting there in 1925.

To do what ?

What would you do once you got there ?
Wonder why you left home ?

[Bill_McBride]

Come on Patrick, Sand Hills is a red herring.

Not really.
I'm sure that getting to Denver, Tulsa and the West Coast were just as difficult

It's not easy to get to now from the major population centers.  

That was to my point.

Imagine getting there in 1925.

To do what ?

What would you do once you got there ?
Wonder why you left home ?

That's why Sand Hills is an obfuscation when you are talking about the paucity of Classic Age courses in Texas!   Imagine that......  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Come on Patrick, Sand Hills is a red herring.

Not really.
I'm sure that getting to Denver, Tulsa and the West Coast were just as difficult

It's not easy to get to now from the major population centers.  

That was to my point.

Imagine getting there in 1925.

To do what ?

What would you do once you got there ?
Wonder why you left home ?

That's why Sand Hills is an obfuscation when you are talking about the paucity of Classic Age courses in Texas!   Imagine that......  

Bill,

You have a lot to learn about geography and demographics.

Dallas, Houston and other Texas cities in 1920 thru 1960 were hardly Mullen, NE's

[David Lott]

2 damn hot

[Bill_McBride]

Come on Patrick, Sand Hills is a red herring.

Not really.
I'm sure that getting to Denver, Tulsa and the West Coast were just as difficult

It's not easy to get to now from the major population centers.  

That was to my point.

Imagine getting there in 1925.

To do what ?

What would you do once you got there ?
Wonder why you left home ?

That's why Sand Hills is an obfuscation when you are talking about the paucity of Classic Age courses in Texas!   Imagine that......  

Bill,

You have a lot to learn about geography and demographics.

Dallas, Houston and other Texas cities in 1920 thru 1960 were hardly Mullen, NE's

Back away from the liquor cabinet.  Sorry I tried to mention that throwing Sand Hills into the discussion was wholly irrelevant. 

[mike_beene]

This thread is just a hint of how crazy the NSA( Nordic Ski Architecture) site in Russia must get in the dead of winter with the vodka flowing and nothing on TV except motorcycle racing on ice

[Patrick_Mucci]

Back away from the liquor cabinet. 
Sorry I tried to mention that throwing Sand Hills into the discussion was wholly irrelevant. 

 Bill,

It's very relevant.

It's proof positive that if you build a great course in a remote location that people will travel great distances to play it.

Have someone explain that concept to you.

Then try to connect that concept to the vast area that comprises Texas

[Patrick_Mucci]

Barry,

For a second I thought you were describing New Jersey.

Today, Texas has a great number of Professional teams in football, basketball and Hockey.
And, they host PGA events, but as Jim stated, still no great new courses.

Texas has an abundance of golfers who belong to Pine Valley, ANGC, Seminole, Sand Hills, CPC and other great courses, so the interest seems to be there.  Over the years they've produced an abundance of great golfers, so again, the interest seems to be there.

Yet, no great golf courses, hence it remains a mystery to me.

[Bill_McBride]

Back away from the liquor cabinet. 
Sorry I tried to mention that throwing Sand Hills into the discussion was wholly irrelevant. 

 Bill,

It's very relevant.

It's proof positive that if you build a great course in a remote location that people will travel great distances to play it.

Have someone explain that concept to you.

Then try to connect that concept to the vast area that comprises Texas

It's really quite useless trying to debate with you.  The only places high end golf was built in somewhat remote locations in the Classic Age was on train lines, c.f. Pinehurst, Augusta and Seminole.  What does a course as remote as Sand Hills have to do with that concept?

Try this theory:   If there had been demand for great courses in Texas, they would have been built.  There wasn't, they weren't built. 

[Jim Hoak]

But, Bill, not to take up Pat's fight, but what does your argument have to do with the fact that no great courses--measured objectively--have even been built in Texas in the last 20 years--no Bandon, no Sand Hills, no Friar's Head.  That can't be because of remoteness in this day and age.  Maybe it explains the '20's and '30's--but what about recently?
There's something more there.

[Sam Morrow]

In the last 10 to 15 years you've had Whispering Pines, Wolf Point, and Austin Golf Club. I'm not real sure how people who've only played a few places in Texas can say there are no great courses. A closed mind is a terrible waste.

[JMEvensky]

 

The state's two flaghip state universities - UT-Austin and A&M - are extremely wealthy with enormous resources and have more recently expended those resources in an attempt at greatness but by most meaures have fallen short.  Sure they are very good but I doubt many consider them great.

At least 2 huge problems with this statement:

1) U Texas is great

2) the Aggies should never be compared to the Horns

Signed--former Longhorn

[Lynn_Shackelford]

In the last 10 to 15 years you've had Whispering Pines, Wolf Point, and Austin Golf Club. I'm not real sure how people who've only played a few places in Texas can say there are no great courses. A closed mind is a terrible waste.

Sam, right on.

I have played Mountain Ridge in New Jersery and Wolf Point and Austin Golf Club are both superior to Mountain Ridge.

I think Pat is just trying to provoke some debate.  He keeps alluding to Sand Hills, but their timing was perfect.  Ballyneal, probably every bit as good a course hit the market at the wrong time and will have trouble surviving, as will the poorly timed Clear Creek, probably better than any other course in Nevada(yes I am biased toward C&C).  So it is not always "build it and they will come."
I also think Barry Samuels makes some great points about Texans.  They sometimes mistake big for greatness.

[Jim Hoak]

Sam--I guess "great" is a matter of opinion, but I have played Austin GC.  I enjoyed it very much, but to call it "great" by any standard would be a major stretch.  I guess you could argue that part of the problem is that opinion leaders on courses are on the coasts--but that wouldn't explain the reputation of Sand Hills and other new "great" courses.  No one comes to Texas just to play any of the courses you mention.  Still a mystery to me why this is true about my home state.

[Bill_McBride]

But, Bill, not to take up Pat's fight, but what does your argument have to do with the fact that no great courses--measured objectively--have even been built in Texas in the last 20 years--no Bandon, no Sand Hills, no Friar's Head.  That can't be because of remoteness in this day and age.  Maybe it explains the '20's and '30's--but what about recently?
There's something more there.

I guess somewhere in the thread the focus shifted to Classic Era courses.  Modern?  Sam lists three that are near great. I'm sure there are others, but if Fazio Foothills at Barton Creek is #20 in Texas then there is clearly a paucity in Texas.  

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