Why aren't there better courses in Texas?

[Ben Hollerbach]

Bill:

It was the most egregious.

I could get past Pat not understanding that Rumford is a suburb of Providence and Edina is suburb of Minneapolis/St. Paul, but trying to claim that a Golden Age architect and his team could get to Newport was somehow a justification as to why they could get to Dallas or Houston was over the top.

I NEVER claimed that getting to Newport versus getting to Texas was the same thing.
That's your attempt to distort and misrepresent what I stated, which is something that you do with regularity.
Distorting and misrepresenting my position is the only way you can dispute my premise.

I merely responded to your population "centers" theory, by showing that a number of cities had very small  populations when compared to Dallas and Houston, circa 1920.

If those "Golden Age" architects could get to Hutchinson, Kansas, and Tulsa, Oklahoma, I'm pretty sure that they could find their way to the cities in Texas.

Or do you want to claim that those cities had airports in full use with 747's flying out on the hour ?

I believe its very well understood why your list of towns was selected. Population does not necessarily equal golf, but rather affluent influence. Yes towns like Newport were smaller than Dallas, but as a vacation destination for the New England wealthy had a tremendous amount of influence in the construction of new courses.

 It appears that I was unable to answer your question about why Tulsa and Hutchinson, or you're choosing to ignore it, at any rate I'll try to answer it another way. On the whole relative population mattered vary little in the formation of a club as the wealth and desire of a few individuals is the more important characteristic. In the case of both Tulsa and Hutchinson, which for the record isn't that far away from Wichita, The towns were flush with cash by the 1920's and were growing at an alarming rate. With Tulsa, it was the Glenpool oil discovery and Phillips Oil that overnight made the city explode. For Wichita it was Oil, the Cessna, Stearman, and Beechcraft aircraft companies, and the Carey Salt Mine. While both smaller than Dallas in the 1920's and 30's, Wichita and Tulsa were much more wealthy towns. This rapid acquisition of wealth lead to the creation of both Prairie Dunes (the Carey family) and Southern Hills (Bill Warren and Waite Phillips). It was the individual wealth, not the population,  that was pivotal in the creation of these course. Which is not to dissimilar to the formation of Colonial in Forth Worth.

It's also important to note that during the 1920's and 30's keeping a golf course alive in this region must have been rather difficult. Pinehurst didn't convert their greens to grass until 1935 and this particular region temperature range is quite a bit wider. This is probably a large factor into why there are so few classic courses of merit left in the state.

Also, if there was any city in america that would have had hourly flights in the 1920's it would have been Wichita, Kansas

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,
I've lived my entire life in some part of "flyover country" and have played the four courses you mention. I don't see Colonial being in the same class as Riviera, Prairie Dunes, or Southern Hills.  I'd have Riviera and Prairie Dunes really high on my list if not for the kikuyu/gunch factors which drop them into that 30-50 range for me, and Southern Hills enjoys far better terrain than Colonial. I'll be curious if you get much agreement from anyone else that Colonial belongs in that class.

On the first, some would offer you their condolences.  But for the weather, I find the great expanses between the coasts to be fantastic places to live and raise a family.

Re: Colonial- I understand your opinion.  Of the four, it is by far the one I am most familiar with (played it 20+ times) and brings up the rear, in my opinion, mostly because of its flat site and some repetitiveness issues (it doesn't help that the two par 5s are at the front of each nine and, for those of us who can't get home in two, neither demand a great second shot).  There is criticism that the greens are too uncomplicated for being relatively small (disagree) and its hallmark bent grass has a hard time from June through mid-October (when more guests have access to the course).  I think that the shot values offered by the course are outstanding, it is a pleasant walk when it's not hot (avoid the U.S. Am qualifier), and it is playable for everyone from the appropriate set of tees.  But for a bit more variety, I like the routing a lot.  Sure, the Trinity River doesn't compare to the Pacific, the river bottom to a sand belt, the cacophony of the nearby railroad yard to the more serene settings of the others.  There is a lot of golf at Colonial.  Hogan certainly thought so.

The thread asked about the absence of "better" courses in Texas.  Somehow the ante has been raised to "great" and then further refined by Pat Mucci to Golfweek's arbitrary timeline for its top 100 "Classical" courses.  IMO, there are 20-30 "great" courses.  The differences between 31 and 60 become very small, and 61-100 even tinier.

You have noted the primary reasons why I don't have Riviera and Prairie Dunes in my "great" list (kikuyu and gunch, respectively).  I have played three rounds at Southern Hills but none since the course was renovated by Keith Foster.  It has better topography than Colonial, more variety, and feels like a bigger site.  My recollection is that it had three or four indifferent holes, and I am not a big fan of hitting from downhill lies to uphill green complexes (9?, 18).  Wonderful course though.  Personally, I doubt that I'd fit in at Riviera, but any of the other three could be home. 

[Jim Hoak]

Reading over the comments on the thread I started, I find it very interesting, but drifting from the real question.
I am a proud Texan, and I'm not knocking my home state, but I see Texas closing the gap on California in most areas--population, economy, etc.  Yes, we are still in second place--but in terms of world-class golf courses, we aren't gaining and we aren't even close to second place.  Forget classic vs. modern--I'm just talking about courses in general--but I am talking about clear top 50 courses--ones that everyone would agree, by whatever standards you want to impose, are truly great.  California has 5-8 of these consensus "great" courses.  We have some good--maybe very good--courses but probably none of these great courses.  And I don't think that recent additions in Texas are closing the gap.
Some very good reasons for this have been raised, but I'm still at somewhat of a loss.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben & Jud,

Despite the distance and population claims, Tillinghast was able to find his way to Texas, but, I don't think you can compare the courses he produced in Texas with any of the courses he produced in the Metropolitan NY area.

And, there're nothing unique about the land at Baltusrol, Ridgewood, Winged Foot and Quaker Ridge
Ditto Shackamaxon and other sites.

So the nonsense about the land not being conducive to great courses is just that, nonsense.

Tell us, what's so different in the topography at Brook Hollow and the courses listed above ?

And, it's got nothing to do with wealth, population centers or distance.

Why Texas has a paucity of great courses remains a mystery to me as well.

The only thing that I can think of is that there weren't any great courses in the immediate area to be compared to.
Therefore, the folks in that neck of the woods didn't have a high level of expectation or sense of "greatness"
That mediocrity begat mediocrity.

When Sebonack was being considered/formulated, my advice to some was that the course needed a great architect and a great final product because it was being built in the shadow of giants.  That without being outstanding, the course would not pass the test of time, and would remain unnoticed in the shadows.

There was no such basis for comparison in Texas.

No "signature" course so to speak.

No National, no Merion, No Oakmont, nothing that would offer and present the highest possible architectural and playing standards

Absent that benchmark, mediocrity abounded.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Andy Troeger]

Lou,
Thanks for sharing your perspectives in more detail. As much as I enjoy visiting the coasts, I have little desire to live there. I'm very happy in Albuquerque and when I call NE courses to ask them to let me play I get the "long-distance" benefit since most people forget there is a state between Texas and Arizona!

[Ben Hollerbach]

Pat,

Do you think the lack of local benchmark greater affected the construction of new courses or the upkeep of existing courses? is it possible that courses built by the likes of Tillinghast or Ross in Texas were originally quite good but diminished over time and were not kept up to the architects intent?

How much do you think Maxwells time with Mackenzie affected his work? Rarely are his courses built prior to Mackenzie viewed or discussed to the level as the courses he built after.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Maybe it could be just as simple as they couldn't have bent greens ( a few exceptions, of course) and they were so far from USGA HQ, and under so little consideration for majors (and they regretted the few they did put here, due to heat)?

That said, the general impression of Texas in my 30 years here is that they felt the were playing catch up to NYC - in almost any kind of culture.  NYC and LA simply did it better.  I agree that once Tillie left, Brookhollow could have been a great example, but whatever the culture of the clubs in those days, it simply never elevated.

Not sure, but maybe just something left over from the Cowboy culture is at odds with whatever cultural norms produced the great golf courses in the NE.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Do you think the lack of local benchmark greater affected the construction of new courses or the upkeep of existing courses?

I would tend to think "new" courses.

"upkeep" isn't an issue in that the bones of the course remain intact.

Let's not forget that Lido and ANGC were essentially commandeered by the military in WWII and let go with virtually no upkeep, but, after the war they were quicky brought back up to speed.  So, I don't see failure to "upkeep" as a destroyer of architecture and certainly not the routing.

is it possible that courses built by the likes of Tillinghast or Ross in Texas were originally quite good but diminished over time and were not kept up to the architects intent?

My guess is that "upkeep" was not the deciding factor, that the courses never achieved stature from the get go.

How much do you think Maxwells time with Mackenzie affected his work?
Rarely are his courses built prior to Mackenzie viewed or discussed to the level as the courses he built after.

There's a fellow on this site who contributes from time to time, who's a Maxwell "expert".
I'd rather have him address that question as he's more qualified to pass on Maxwell's career.

[Sven Nilsen]

I think what Pat is trying to tell us is that J.R. preferred to use the South 40 for its original purpose, as opposed to hiring some New Yorker or Philadelphian whose four days of travel expenses he'd have to cover to build a world class golf course. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Maybe it could be just as simple as they couldn't have bent greens ( a few exceptions, of course) and they were so far from USGA HQ, and under so little consideration for majors (and they regretted the few they did put here, due to heat)?


Jeff,

Don't know about the "bent greens" with the likes of Seminole, Augusta, Pinehurst and others not having bent greens.

And certainly, California is further from New York than Texas, so I tend to doubt the USGA as a factor.

It's true that the USGA and PGA didn't venture south of the Mason-Dixon line for a long, long while

But, I think the lack of quality peers is probably the primary reason that great courses didn't spring up in Texas


That said, the general impression of Texas in my 30 years here is that they felt the were playing catch up to NYC - in almost any kind of culture.  NYC and LA simply did it better.  I agree that once Tillie left, Brookhollow could have been a great example, but whatever the culture of the clubs in those days, it simply never elevated.

I wouldn't call it a "malaise" but, I think the spacial relationships between cities hurt Texas.

If you played at Garden City, you were within the business and social circles that brought you into contact with golfers from Merion
Ditto most of the clubs in the Northeast, therefore, comparisons and competitions were common.

From my house it might be 30 miles to GCGC, 95 miles to NGLA and 95 miles to Merion.
If you lived in Dallas, it's 572 miles to El Paso, 260 miles to San Antonio, so how often are you going to make that trip, in 1920 or 1960 ?

Yet, in 1920 or 1960, you'd drive 30 or 95 miles to play and compare those courses.
Now, throw in Pine Valley, probably no more than 95 miles away, Winged Foot, Shinnecock, Bethpage, Piping Rock, The Creek, Yale, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Quaker Ridge, Fenway, Ridgewood, Plainfield and others and you can see that the competition and comparisons in a very small area would be fierce.

And, that those engaging in the comparisons, those interested in starting a new club, would have a fabulous frame of reference.

No such frame of reference existed in Texas.
They had nothing to compare new courses to, hence they were mired in mediocrity.

Now, I am surprised that a wealthy visionary from Texas didn't visit the east coast and try to import something special to Dallas, Houston or some of the other cities where wealth was centered.  That there was no Cliff Roberts wearing a cowboy hat.

The NYC area was inundated with great courses, so tastes amongst golfers were refined.
The same could be said of Boston and Philadelphia, but, not the entire state of Texas.
Surprisingly, Washington, D.C. is lacking in quality courses when compared to Boston, NY or Philadelphia

Not sure, but maybe just something left over from the Cowboy culture is at odds with whatever cultural norms produced the great golf courses in the NE.

I think there's an element of that.
That golf wasn't embraced in Texas the way it was in the NE.
But, then again, how would you explain Byron Nelson and Ben Hogan, both born in 1912 and great players by the 1930's ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think what Pat is trying to tell us is that J.R. preferred to use the South 40 for its original purpose, as opposed to hiring some New Yorker or Philadelphian whose four days of travel expenses he'd have to cover to build a world class golf course. 

Sven,

There was more than ample wealth in the cities in Texas, and if I'm not mistaken, according to you, Tillinghast was invited to Texas and produced a significant number of courses in Texas.  So, evidently, someone was willing to pick up his tab.

[Bill_McBride]

I think what Pat is trying to tell us is that J.R. preferred to use the South 40 for its original purpose, as opposed to hiring some New Yorker or Philadelphian whose four days of travel expenses he'd have to cover to build a world class golf course. 

Sven,

There was more than ample wealth in the cities in Texas, and if I'm not mistaken, according to you, Tillinghast was invited to Texas and produced a significant number of courses in Texas.  So, evidently, someone was willing to pick up his tab.

What did AWT design beyond Brookhollow and Brackenridge?

With a very few exceptions, none of the Golden Age greats went to Texas during the Golden Age.  No Ross, Thomas, Mackenzie, Emmet, Travis, Raynor.....but a lot of Plummer.  Apparently there weren't a lot of tabs being picked up, or major commissions offered. 

[mike_beene]

Cedar Crest

[Ben Hollerbach]

Maybe it could be just as simple as they couldn't have bent greens ( a few exceptions, of course) and they were so far from USGA HQ, and under so little consideration for majors (and they regretted the few they did put here, due to heat)?

I think this is a big factor. Especially considering what lengths Marvin Leonard went to ensuring Colonial had bent greens for their Open. North Texas is a hard place to grow grass in the middle of the year and the winters don't allow for much recuperation. At places like the North Carolina's Sand Hills, Georgia's coastal plain, or Florida's Atlantic coastline the temperature swings are not as great and the moisture content is higher, promoting better growth.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I think what Pat is trying to tell us is that J.R. preferred to use the South 40 for its original purpose, as opposed to hiring some New Yorker or Philadelphian whose four days of travel expenses he'd have to cover to build a world class golf course. 

Sven,

There was more than ample wealth in the cities in Texas, and if I'm not mistaken, according to you, Tillinghast was invited to Texas and produced a significant number of courses in Texas.  So, evidently, someone was willing to pick up his tab.

What did AWT design beyond Brookhollow and Brackenridge?

With a very few exceptions, none of the Golden Age greats went to Texas during the Golden Age.  No Ross, Thomas, Mackenzie, Emmet, Travis, Raynor.....but a lot of Plummer.  Apparently there weren't a lot of tabs being picked up, or major commissions offered. 

Ross did a few courses in Texas, all around the Houston area.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bill:

Here's the list of Tillie Texas courses:

Original Designs:

Brackenridge Park GC (1916)
Brook Hollow GC (1922)
Cedar Crest GC (1916)
Corsicana CC (1926)
Fort Sam Houston (1918 & 1929)
Oak Hills CC (a/k/a Alamo) (1922)
River Crest

Renovations and Additions:

Cedar Crest GC (1920)
Dallas CC (1921)
Fort Worth CC (1920)
San Antonio CC (1915)

[mike_beene]

Going back a few comments, how many great courses does California have? I would think LACC North, Riviera, Cypress, SFGC and then perhaps Olympic Lake, Pebble, Pasatiempo and perhaps Bel-Air?Again depends upon "great". Is Bel -Air really great or just very good?Same question for Olympic.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sven,

In talking with Phil the Author (Tillie bio guy) and looking up all the records I can, we are not sure Tillie had anything to do with Corsicana CC.  I get the feeling its one of those things where they asked the shapers down and called it a Tillie.  Based on the green pads, I would guess only one nine had any Tillie shaper input, too.

But, the eyes could fool me.

[mike_beene]

Sven,I have never heard of Ft Worth CC. Is it gone now? I think Sam M. Was at Corsicana at one point but not sure what it is like now. DallasCC was changed a few times since Tilley was there and I doubt any of his work remains.River Crest is a very tight property and I have walked it but not played it.It is the old money Ft Worth club and most Golfers there have a membership at Shady or one of the other clubs.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci,

I agree with you that there is nothing special about the land at courses like Winged Foot or Baltusrol. However, since living in Houston I haven't seen any land comparable to Quaker Ridge.

[mike_beene]

Jeff,I sometimes read Tilley was at Lakewood at one point but I can never find any evidence that he did anything.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

You really don't have a sense of humor, do you?  Check that, please don't answer this, as I don't need to hear how funny you think you are.

Yes, Tillie did venture down to Texas to build courses.  I remember reading somewhere how his connection with the folks down there came about, but I can't recall the exact details nor find the source right now.  My best guess is that he was brought down to do one or two courses, and afterwards became the go to guy for anyone looking to build a course.  

It would be interesting to have Phil Young chime in and tell us the back stories for Brackenridge Park, Brook Hollow, Cedar Crest, Corsicana, etc.  Where did the money for these projects come from?  Who were the main players?  What were their golf influences/roots?

Maxwell's connections with Texas are fairly obvious.  For a good portion of his career, he was right up the road.  

Ross came through a couple of times in the '20's to build three courses.  I have no idea if he made the trip or designed from topos, nor how much time he spent on site, if any.

As noted, this only represents a fraction of the number of courses that were built in Texas in the early days.  By 1940, there had been approximately 240 courses built in the State.  That is not an insignificant number.  Who built and maintained most of those courses is largely unknown.  John Bredemus appears to be the only local architecture talent of note, and has his hands on many of the more highly regarded courses built.

Other than these guys, and a handful of courses by Bendelow, there are a number of one- or two-offs by a sampling of other guys.  

In short, it wasn't an area where the architects of the day were spending a lot of time.  Contrast the development of Texas with that of Florida during the same time frame.  There's a reason why so many big names were setting up offices in Florida.  There was plenty of work to be had, and it made for a good balance with the courses they were still building in the Northeast and Midwest during the summers.  The centered their time and efforts, and the locations of their work crews, in the areas that would provide the greatest return.  There may have been guys in Texas who had money and could afford to hire high price talent, but unless they could guarantee steady work, it wouldn't make sense for any of those architects to develop the support system in the state that they did in other areas, areas where they were able to dedicate the time and effort needed to produce courses that have become known to be "great."

You've brought up Winged Foot as an example of a great course that Tillie was able to build on a not so great site.  We could argue over whether Winged Foot is better or worse than anything he had to work with in Texas, but I'd suspect that would just result in another black hole of conjecture.  What you can't argue is the quality of the teams available in each location.  Tillie was able to work with a team that was familiar with golf course construction when he worked in the Northeast.  That would not have been the case in Texas.  If an architect is only as good as his team (a mantra repeated hereabout with a great deal of frequency), I can easily understand why the architects of the Golden Age produced their best work in the areas where they had access to trusted teams and a developed support system.

As I said before, it was one thing to move your team from Westchester County to New Jersey.  Or from Boca Raton to Lake Wales.  Or from Connecticut to Newport.  It was entirely different proposition to move that team halfway across the country.  Would have been cheaper to hire laborers down there, but the tradeoff is you'd lose the benefit of the experience of guys who had done it before.

Green ink to your little heart's delight.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,I have never heard of Ft Worth CC. Is it gone now? I think Sam M. Was at Corsicana at one point but not sure what it is like now. DallasCC was changed a few times since Tilley was there and I doubt any of his work remains.River Crest is a very tight property and I have walked it but not played it.It is the old money Ft Worth club and most Golfers there have a membership at Shady or one of the other clubs.

Mike:

FWCC is a 1911 Bendelow that was redone by Tillie.  Pretty sure its NLE.

Sven

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sven,

Texan dislike of any Yankee is legendary, and might partly explain why so few courses were designed by the early masters, since they were mostly from Boston, NYC and areas surrounding.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci,

I agree with you that there is nothing special about the land at courses like Winged Foot or Baltusrol. However, since living in Houston I haven't seen any land comparable to Quaker Ridge.

Tim,

I could say the same thing about Boynton Beach, Florida, yet Pine Tree, once ranked 27 in Golf Digest's list sits on dead flat land.

Hogan calld it the greatest flat course in America.

Maidstone is relatively flat as is Westhampton, Southampton, Atlantic City, Seaview, Hollywood and many other good to great courses.
Hence, I don't find flat to relatively flat land an impediment to greatness.

Didn't Tom Doak design a terrific course in Lubbock on dead flat land ?