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Nigel Islam

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2014, 12:35:55 AM »
Sven, you just have to look at Southern Illinois vs. the north. Limited population, somewhat poorer hence I don't think there was an 18 hole course until the 60s. If you drive anywhere around there it makes a lot of sense. Maybe it was the fact that land was more valuable for other stuff. Farming, horse breeding etc.

Nigel Islam

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2014, 12:49:28 AM »
http://www.golfblogger.com/index.php/golf/comments/golf_courses_per_capita/

Shocked me that Indiana has more courses than South Carolina.

mike_beene

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2014, 02:21:13 AM »
I am sure the depression set a lot of clubs back but when you consider Cedar Crest and it's beautiful site( probably the best in north Texas) you wonder what might have been had the depression not come so soon after it's creation. I am guessing that a lot of clubs that exist today got close to not making it. And there weren't that many clubs to start with in Texas. Also, before AC not sure how popular outdoor summer sports were here .Even pro baseball came late.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2014, 05:39:02 AM »
I think it comes down to a matter of timing.

When golf hit its biggest boom in the 20's, the fact is that they were building golf courses in Texas.  But at the time Texas had a much smaller population than it does today, especially when considered on a relative basis with the other major US cities of today.

If you track the growth of cities like Dallas and Houston, they really blew up after World War II, seeing their greatest growth between 1940 and 1970.  This time periods happens to correspond with the dark days of golf course construction in this country.  It seems to me like there's been some catching up going on in the last 30 years or so, but if you compare the bigger cities in Texas to other major US cities, they don't have the dearth of classic era courses that you'd see in the likes of Boston, New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Los Angeles.

As for why none of the classic era courses that were built are considered truly "great," it probably has to do with where the architects and construction teams of the day were located.  If you map out the locations of the "great" classic era courses, you'll find that they're concentrated around the historic population centers, all of which were a good ways away from the Lone Star State.  It was one thing to move a construction team from Westchester County to New Jersey, it was a completely different proposition to get your best guys all the way down to Dallas.


Do you consider Hutchinson, Kansas to be a great population center ?
Frankfort, Michigan ?
Monterey, California
Augusta, Georgia ?
Pinehurst, North Carolina ?
Rumford, Rhode Island ?
Montecito, California ?
Newport, Rhode Island ?
Edina, Minnesota ?
Green Lake, Wisconsin ?
White Bear Lake, Minnesota ?
Lake Wales, Florida ?
Manchester, Vermont ?
Duluth, Minnesota ?
Lake Orion, Michigan ?
Pittsford, New York ?

The best guys seemed to get to those locations so it shouldn't have been hard to get them to Dallas, Houston and other cities.
Certainly finances weren't an issue.

While golf followed the railroads and population centers it also followed wealth and visionaries.

Given the roughly 270,000 square miles that comprise Texas, it's surprising that there aren't more great courses.
Minnesota, remote and cold has a number of great courses.
In the entire state of Texas, only Colonial makes the top 100 classic.

If that's not surprising to you, well ........

« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 05:42:04 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Jud_T

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2014, 06:24:13 AM »
Pat,

I think Sven pretty much nailed it- the timing of the biggest growth in the state.  Sure they could have had a one-off classic era course like the towns you mentioned, but for whatever reason they didn't. Also most of the towns you mentioned weren't nearly as far afield as Texas.  Going to Texas in the 20's was an adventure as much as a business trip.  Combining the timing with the generally flat terrain and indigenous soils pretty much covers it. Even states that did have a lot of development in the golden age but have flat topography and mediocre golfing soil produced a relative paucity of truly great courses, i. e. Illinois.  The real question IMO is what are the interesting sandy areas of the state and what is their viability for future development?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 07:33:40 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2014, 07:33:36 AM »
Pat,

I think Sven pretty much nailed it- the timing of the biggest growth in the state. 

Nonsense.
Are you going to tell me that Hutchinson, Kansas experienced a growth spurt that surpassed Dallas, Houston and other Texas cities ?


Sure they could have had a one-off classic era course like the towns you mentioned, but for whatever reason they didn't.

We know that, that's why Jim Hoak created this thread.


Also most of those towns you mentioned weren't nearly as far afield as Texas. 

You need a refresher course in geography


Going to Texas in the 20's was an adventure as much as a business trip. 

Like going to Tulsa and Hutchinson ?
Where and how are you drawing your conclusions ?


Combining the timing with the generally flat terrain and inigenous soils pretty much covers it.

Jud, do you realize how moronic the above statement is ?
You're stating that 270,000 square miles of terrain in Texas is generally flat is beyond moronic ?
Flatter than South Florida ?
Flatter than Hutchinson, Kansas

Have you ever been to Texas ?
Have you ever been to Sourh Florida ?
Gave you ever been to Hutchinson, Kansas ?


Even states that did have a lot of development in the golden age but have flat topography and mediocre golfing soil produced a relative paucity of truly great courses, i. e. Illinois. 

I count FIVE (5) in the top 79.
How is that a paucity ?


The real question IMO is what are the interesting sandy areas of the state and what is their viability for future development?

Start a new thread with that as the title.


Jud_T

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2014, 07:41:37 AM »
Last I looked there was exactly 1 Doak 8 in Illinois and a handful of Tournament courses that sticks get sticky over.  So the fact that there's exactly 1 great course in Hutchinson Kansas explains your theory?  I think you need a refresher course in sample size.  Might want to pick up a copy of "Stats for Dummies". 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris DeToro

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2014, 07:54:24 AM »
I have to agree with the sentiment regarding Texas golf.  For a state with the size and the diverse topography, you'd have to assume that guys would've made it down there to build.  Plus, the weather is nice.  Texas is rarely a consideration when I think of places to visit during the winter due to the seeming lack of appealing options to play.  But even if you fast forward to modern times, there still hasn't been a boom of Texas golf and the rationale that maybe made sense for the early 1900's (cost, population growth) doesn't really hold true anymore 

Dave Doxey

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2014, 07:59:46 AM »
I lived in Houston for 10 years.  I found that, relative to other areas that I lived in, there was a lot of good or very good courses, both private and public, that provided excellent value golf.

“Great” courses depend on where you draw the line between great and very good.  Champions, Colonial, Barton Creek, Carlton Woods, and Austin CC come to mind as near that boundary line.

I've lived in the Boston, New York and Washington DC areas.  While each of those has courses that likely fit our “great” category, none came even close to Texas in the quantity of “very good” or “good” golf that was accessible and affordable.  

As a frequent player, I'd rate Texas as far better then the east coast metro areas.  I base than on the number of courses, conditioning, and affordability of both public and private courses.The longer season is also a big plus.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2014, 08:04:23 AM »
Perhaps the people with the money didn't have the genteel background of the Northeasterners who built great courses in Pinehurst, South Florida and Georgia, winter destinations for the moneyed with time on their hands.  Texan rich in many cases during the Golden Age of golf courses were wildcatters and other hardworking upwardly mobile types.  Golf was not likely in their genes.  

And as a destination for the wealthy, it's not good, too cold in the winter and blistering hot (Dallas) or swampy hot (Houston) in the summer.   Don't blink during the shoulder seasons, they are brief.  

Each major city has a very good to great course (Brookhollow, Colonial, Champions, Austin Country Club) where the old money played.  I don't think there is one in San Antonio.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2014, 08:05:43 AM »

Last I looked there was exactly 1 Doak 8 in Illinois and a handful of Tournament courses that sticks get sticky over. 

Then you didn't look very hard.
Golfweek's classic list has five (5) courses in the top 79.

So the fact that there's exactly 1 great course in Hutchinson Kansas explains your theory? 

Only a moron would draw that conclusion.
Would you call Hutchinson, Kansas a Midwestern "population center"
Use your head for something other than a hat rack


I think you need a refresher course in sample size. 

You don't even understand the relevance of the cities I cited.
Have someone with a functioning brain explain it to you.


Might want to pick up a copy of "Stats for Dummies". 

Isn't that the book where you couldn't get past the first chapter.

Don't you think before you hit the post prompt ?


Jud_T

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2014, 08:18:21 AM »

Last I looked there was exactly 1 Doak 8 in Illinois and a handful of Tournament courses that sticks get sticky over.  

Then you didn't look very hard.
Golfweek's classic list has five (5) courses in the top 79.



I wasn't aware that Golfweek gave out Doak ratings.  Actually Florida has a Doak 9, meaning that Florida has better great golf than Illinois, and probably easier to access...  8)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Andy Troeger

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2014, 09:48:19 AM »
Sometimes I think threads like this come down to how people define "great." I think Dave and a few others make a fair point that Texas has plenty of good golf, much of which is affordable and available to the public. I do get the impression that Texas has a lot of courses that fall into the Doak 5 range--courses that are above average and worth playing for the locals but not necessarily worth traveling well out of your way to see.

I do think it is a stretch, however, to start calling some of the better courses in Texas "great" in terms of the course/architecture. Colonial and Champions have great history and ambiance and are likely great clubs (hard to say in one day), but the golf courses are just good IMO. Since we've discussed Illinois in this thread, I think Colonial and Champions fall somewhere between Olympia Fields South and Kemper Lakes in terms of course interest. I've played The Rawls Course and Butterfield Trail (#2/#3 public from GolfWeek) and enjoyed both courses, but don't think either necessarily belong on a USA Top 100 public listing. Both are good courses, and Rawls especially is a very good value.

The best course I've seen in Texas is Whispering Pines. The setting is very good and the last five holes are a super finish. It deserves to be in any USA top 100 list and I'd say deserves the "great" label. I like Dallas National too and can see it being on the fence for the various top 100 lists--making some but not all. Maybe some of those Austin/San Antonio area courses deserve to be rated higher too--I haven't been.

Jud_T

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2014, 09:59:07 AM »
Does Austin Golf Club enter the conversation?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2014, 10:35:28 AM »

Like going to Tulsa and Hutchinson ?


Pat,

Why Tulsa and Hutchinson? Oil, Airplanes, and Salt. Plus both Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes were built on very good sites.

It is rather interesting that the the two courses from the geographic region you selected as evidence that Texas could have a great course were both Maxwell designs. While I don't disagree with you, it rather makes a lot of sense that an architect who spent the majority of their career in the region would produce courses of that distinction. It makes me wonder when architects like Tillinghast worked in Texas did they feel out of their element?

Really the metropolises of the great planes are rather young and we should be so fortunate that great courses like Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes were built when they were, rather than expecting the entire region should be filled with courses of similar stature.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2014, 10:57:22 AM »
Sometimes I think threads like this come down to how people define "great." I think Dave and a few others make a fair point that Texas has plenty of good golf, much of which is affordable and available to the public. I do get the impression that Texas has a lot of courses that fall into the Doak 5 range--courses that are above average and worth playing for the locals but not necessarily worth traveling well out of your way to see.


You are a year and a half from finding out for sure.  After volume 1 is put to bed, I'm on reconnaissance this fall for the second volume of The Confidential Guide, which will include Texas.  If all you Texans want to give me your lists of five courses I should see, it would be most appreciated.  I won't see them all of course, but I should be able to squeeze in a few after I look for something worthwhile in Arkansas - Louisiana - Mississippi.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2014, 11:28:41 AM »
Does Austin Golf Club enter the conversation?

Really good course but I thought the issue was the classics.   If it's all courses, AGC definitely counts and I think is more highly regarded than Austin CC (Pete Dye).

Bill_McBride

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2014, 11:35:39 AM »
We are also the second biggest state in land size.  And have great geographic and geologic diversity.  We have deserts, we have mountains, we have great coast line.
We have wonderful amateur golf.  We have good junior programs.  We have a huge number of golfers.
We have business successes and wealth.
But, still, we don't have any world-class golf courses.

Yes you do.  Wolf Point. 

Bill - how good are we talking? I don't see it ranked in Golfweek but then maybe it doesn't want to be rated? Where would you put it against some of the big guns?

It's owned by a very private individual in BFE Texas.  Friends and prospective clients of the architect are the only guests.  No rating.  It has the feel of Walton Heath and the openness with strategic options of the Old Course.   The super keeps it firm and bouncy. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2014, 12:12:53 PM »

Like going to Tulsa and Hutchinson ?


Pat,

Why Tulsa and Hutchinson?

Because Sven made the population argument and Hutchinson, Kansas and Tulsa, Oklahoma refute that argument.


Oil, Airplanes, and Salt. Plus both Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes were built on very good sites.

Alot of good to great courses are built on very good sites
Does the course make the site or vice versa ?
Is Seminole a good site ?
Pine Tree ?
Boca Rio
GCGC ?


It is rather interesting that the the two courses from the geographic region you selected as evidence that Texas could have a great course were both Maxwell designs.

Yes, and it's surprising to me that Colonial seems to be his only outstanding work in Texas.


While I don't disagree with you, it rather makes a lot of sense that an architect who spent the majority of their career in the region would produce courses of that distinction. It makes me wonder when architects like Tillinghast worked in Texas did they feel out of their element?

I don't think a quality architect ever feels out of his element.
And, I have to think that in 1920 to 1960 that the environmental and permitting impediments were minimal to non-existant.


Really the metropolises of the great planes are rather young and we should be so fortunate that great courses like Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes were built when they were, rather than expecting the entire region should be filled with courses of similar stature.

It's not a question of the region being filled with great courses, it's the absence of great courses that's the mystery.


Lou_Duran

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2014, 12:30:51 PM »
Tom Doak,

I hope that in your new book, perhaps in the Preface, you will describe your preferences in sufficient detail as well as the methodology and due diligence employed in reaching your conclusions.  I would enjoy if you also rated your own courses, though I understand the issue of sensitivity with clients.

Pat Mucci,

Why are you defining the timeline?  Do you believe that "great" is only a qualifier for a specific period of time?  I understand why Golfweek differentiates "Classic" from "Modern", though I think it is an unnecessary, artificial construct which probably has more to do with marketing than a reasonably subjective analysis and ranking of the best golf courses.

In your time period, Texas is lacking for reasons adequately noted by others.  Not only was the concentration of population and wealth late to the state relative to your beloved Northeast, the type of people making and accumulating money (as alluded to by Bill McBride) were hardly from the genteel, financial classes a few generations old (not many trust fund folks here, even today, where the last three or four generations of men have never worked).

Greg Clark in the linked thread provides a good list of our better courses.  I personally believe that Fazio has four, maybe five that are worthy of national recognition, Nicklaus has a couple, ditto for Plummer, C & C has one- albeit much less adorned and frilly than some of their more acclaimed offerings elsewhere- with maybe a second one coming, Williams, Sutton and Weed have one each.

Many years ago, Tiger Bernhardt (who we miss very much) and I played Riviera on a very typical SoCal mid-afternoon.  It was a few degrees below 70, wind "blowing" from the Pacific at 2-3 mph.  We step to the tee on #4 and our caddie warns us of the heavy wind.  Tiger gives me a look of incredulity and hits a driver (I made him play the back tees) which the kikuyu killed just short of the green.  I hit a long iron wildly to the right, but the kikuyu holds me up and I get up and down for par, as I recall.  Though tight, we didn't lose a ball and raised a sweat all day.  Idyllic.

We ran a qualifier yesterday for the TGA Am at Brook Hollow in June.  It was one of a dozen or so, this one on a good, inexpensive community course north of Dallas.  60 players fought 20-30 mph winds on a course that was hard as a rock from a drought now running for two years and a cold winter and spring.  Balls flying all over the place, but four players at two over 74 played-off for the final eighth spot in the Am and the order of three alternate slots (took four extra holes).  The medalist shot a 69; the winner of the last spot made birdie on 18, the first play-off hole, 430 yards, uphill, directly into the southern wind, with trees guarding the landing zone similar to #18 at CPC.

Golf in Texas is an intense, sweaty, physical struggle against the golf course and, often, a pissed-off Mother Nature.  It is the antithesis of a round at SFGC or Quaker Ridge.  Our courses are built on mostly unexciting terrain exposed to the elements.  Those blessed with good topography are usually damned by poor soils, dry conditions, and scarce water for irrigation.  In most places, the wind is nearly always a factor, and when it is not, the bugs, heat and humidity make us wish that it was.  It is no surprise that those weaned on Olympic, CPC, Winged Foot, etc. may have a poor opinion of Texas golf.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I think that the depth and breadth in every category- private, public, resort- here is outstanding.  The pricing is often attractive and there is no question that we breed a very high quality golfer.  Could the state produce so many good players without good architecture?  I think not, unless you believe that "great" gca is of the kind you find mostly in a picture book on your end table as opposed to what you engage in an intense, physical, personal manner.  And it can get very personal here. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2014, 12:48:05 PM »

Pat Mucci,

Why are you defining the timeline? 

Because it coincided with Golfweek's line of demarcation


Do you believe that "great" is only a qualifier for a specific period of time? 

YES


I understand why Golfweek differentiates "Classic" from "Modern", though I think it is an unnecessary, artificial construct which probably has more to do with marketing than a reasonably subjective analysis and ranking of the best golf courses.

In your time period, Texas is lacking for reasons adequately noted by others.  Not only was the concentration of population and wealth late to the state relative to your beloved Northeast, the type of people making and accumulating money (as alluded to by Bill McBride) were hardly from the genteel, financial classes a few generations old (not many trust fund folks here, even today, where the last three or four generations of men have never worked).

Then how do you account for Hutchinson, Kansas, Tulsa, Oklahoma and all the other cities I cited ?
Are you trying to tell us that Texas was the last frontier ?


Greg Clark in the linked thread provides a good list of our better courses.  I personally believe that Fazio has four, maybe five that are worthy of national recognition, Nicklaus has a couple, ditto for Plummer, C & C has one- albeit much less adorned and frilly than some of their more acclaimed offerings elsewhere- with maybe a second one coming, Williams, Sutton and Weed have one each.

All irrelevant in the time frame cited, when the "Golden Age" architects were most active.


Many years ago, Tiger Bernhardt (who we miss very much) and I played Riviera on a very typical SoCal mid-afternoon.  It was a few degrees below 70, wind "blowing" from the Pacific at 2-3 mph.  We step to the tee on #4 and our caddie warns us of the heavy wind.  Tiger gives me a look of incredulity and hits a driver (I made him play the back tees) which the kikuyu killed just short of the green.  I hit a long iron wildly to the right, but the kikuyu holds me up and I get up and down for par, as I recall.  Though tight, we didn't lose a ball and raised a sweat all day.  Idyllic.

Lou, help me out, what has that got to do with golf courses in Texas


We ran a qualifier yesterday for the TGA Am at Brook Hollow in June.  It was one of a dozen or so, this one on a good, inexpensive community course north of Dallas.  60 players fought 20-30 mph winds on a course that was hard as a rock from a drought now running for two years and a cold winter and spring.  Balls flying all over the place, but four players at two over 74 played-off for the final eighth spot in the Am and the order of three alternate slots (took four extra holes).  The medalist shot a 69; the winner of the last spot made birdie on 18, the first play-off hole, 430 yards, uphill, directly into the southern wind, with trees guarding the landing zone similar to #18 at CPC.

You've lost me again.


Golf in Texas is an intense, sweaty, physical struggle against the golf course and, often, a pissed-off Mother Nature.  It is the antithesis of a round at SFGC or Quaker Ridge. 

That's sheer nonsense.
You're letting your Lone Star ego get in the way.
How is golf in Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico.
Does heat and humidity and Mother Nature confine herself to the Texas borders ?


Our courses are built on mostly unexciting terrain exposed to the elements. 

Every course is exposed to the elements.
And, the siting process is elective, it's a choice, not a default.


Those blessed with good topography are usually damned by poor soils, dry conditions, and scarce water for irrigation. 

Like Hutchinson, Kansas and Tulsa, Oklahoma ?


In most places, the wind is nearly always a factor, and when it is not, the bugs, heat and humidity make us wish that it was. 

Lou, STOP MAKING EXCUSES


It is no surprise that those weaned on Olympic, CPC, Winged Foot, etc. may have a poor opinion of Texas golf.


Would you cite for us, those who indicated that they have a poor opinion of Texas golf ?
What's been asked is why aren't there more, better courses.



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

Baloney.
There are certain benchmarks, certain standards that are prudently arrived at.
Call it consensus if you will,, but stop making excuses.


I think that the depth and breadth in every category- private, public, resort- here is outstanding.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, one that seems to be at odds with Jim Hoak's, mine and others.
 

The pricing is often attractive and there is no question that we breed a very high quality golfer.

IRRELEVANT
 

Could the state produce so many good players without good architecture? 

Absolutely, how would you classify Trevino's test track ?


I think not, unless you believe that "great" gca is of the kind you find mostly in a picture book on your end table as opposed to what you engage in an intense, physical, personal manner. 

You've lost it.
You've let your Texas pride overcome common sense.


And it can get very personal here. 

That's obvious ;D


Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2014, 01:59:54 PM »

Like going to Tulsa and Hutchinson ?


Pat,

Why Tulsa and Hutchinson?

Because Sven made the population argument and Hutchinson, Kansas and Tulsa, Oklahoma refute that argument.


I wasn't asking Tulsa or Hutchinson, but rather parroting your comment. While not as big as Dallas by 1930,  both Tulsa and Wichita were growing rapidly due to the influence of Oil, Airplanes, and Salt. Especially Tulsa which in its first 30 years of existence grew 350% faster than Dallas. A heavy influx of money coupled with the creation or Route 66 brought a heavy eastern influence to the area in a short amount of time.

Oil, Airplanes, and Salt. Plus both Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes were built on very good sites.

Alot of good to great courses are built on very good sites
Does the course make the site or vice versa ?
Is Seminole a good site ?
Pine Tree ?
Boca Rio
GCGC ?


It is rather interesting that the the two courses from the geographic region you selected as evidence that Texas could have a great course were both Maxwell designs.

Yes, and it's surprising to me that Colonial seems to be his only outstanding work in Texas.


Maxwell did very few courses in Texas, 6 by my count, with two of them being built on military bases. I'm not terribly surprised that Colonial is the only one still discussed, but I would imagine that if Austin CC had stayed at their riverside location that course may be discussed more.

While I don't disagree with you, it rather makes a lot of sense that an architect who spent the majority of their career in the region would produce courses of that distinction. It makes me wonder when architects like Tillinghast worked in Texas did they feel out of their element?

I don't think a quality architect ever feels out of his element.
And, I have to think that in 1920 to 1960 that the environmental and permitting impediments were minimal to non-existant.



Really the metropolises of the great planes are rather young and we should be so fortunate that great courses like Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes were built when they were, rather than expecting the entire region should be filled with courses of similar stature.

It's not a question of the region being filled with great courses, it's the absence of great courses that's the mystery.


Really the same could be said for most of the flyover parts of the country. Between LA and Chicago there are just not as many great courses as you would find elsewhere. Of course the existence of courses like Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes shows that they can be built but does not answer why they're not. The answer is probably found in a mixture of settlement age, population movement, weather, money, and agronomy. Which does not lead to a simple explanation. I'd still say there is some very good golf in the DFW area and should not be overlooked, regardless of whatever rankings you subscribe to.

Frank Giordano

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2014, 02:48:07 PM »
 "It makes me wonder when architects like Tillinghast worked in Texas did they feel out of their element?"

Claude Harmon worked at River Oaks Country Club for a few months after Jack Burke, Sr., died in the 1940s.  His reason for leaving, according to his son Dick, was that the members there valued golf as just another form of gambling.  One of the members I interviewed there when I was writing the club's history, told me an amusing anecdote. 
Many of these guys were 30 minutes off a tractor or oil field, when they'd walk into the pro shop, say, "Hey Mr. Burke, hand me a sack of those sticks."  Then, turning to a mate, would ask, "How much we playing for?"  No doubt but that men like Tilly and Donald Ross  would be uncomfortable with the brassy nouveaux riches down there.

However, I lived in Houston for 26 years and agree with those who think there is plenty of excellent golf throughout the state.  Places rarely mentioned here are Waterwood National, where Bill Coore did most of the work in the 1980s as a Pete Dye associate.  San Antonio had quite a boom just before I left in the late 90s, with The Quarry, The Dominion, the La Cantera and Hyatt Hill Country resort courses. Robert von Hagge and Bruce Devlin made Walden on Lake Conroe their first Texas design, and it remains a very fine course, as are several others of theirs around Houston, such as in The Woodlands.   Joe Finger's work at Deerwood and Kingwood is also quite fine.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2014, 02:50:58 PM »
Pat Mucci,

Perhaps your East Coast inbreeding and limited exposure to Texas golf can explain your irrational prejudices.  Citing Golfweek and its two lists of Top 100 courses is no more than confirmation bias.  Didn't Fazio once say that he had 30 or so top 10 courses?  But I digress.

Like with so many things, we perceive golf based on our reference points growing up.  I alluded to Riviera and the TGA qualifier course to illustrate how we may come to our beliefs of what constitutes quality golf.  Even in Texas, with many immigrants from the Northeast and CA, quite a few people don't like to play in the wind.  Any number don't like to sweat (I believe Tiger Bernhardt was one of them, which puzzled me being that he lived in Louisiana).  I can understand how someone who played at places like Riviera and Olympic can come to Texas and not be terribly impressed with Colonial with the wind blowing, hard ground, and boundaries that come into play.  BTW, I consider Colonial, Southern Hills, Prairie Dunes, and Riviera to be in the same general class- in the 31-60 or so category.

As to the magazine criteria and the consensus you mention, the best that can be said is that they (the criteria) are someone's attempt to make an essentially subjective process attain some appearance of objectivity.  I know the methodology pretty well and quite a few raters and I'd bet that there are more of a top-down, precedence influences driving the averages than anything resembling consensus.

Regarding weather and climate and their effects on the ratings, the examples you offer to criticize my opinion (Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico) hardly support your thesis.  None of them have an abundance of courses in the Top 100.  BTW, outside of the temperate climate of coastal CA, are there "better" courses in the state?

Last but not least, I am not making excuses for Texas golf.  None are required.  I am trying to explain why the perceptions from the outside appear to be so different than what I have personally experienced during my many years here.  Just like New York and California are not for everyone, neither is Texas.  That folks from these two great states keep moving here in droves is both a boon and a source of concern for those of us here.  We certainly don't mind sharing the prosperity, but, at least for many of us, we have no desire to become like the places our immigrants have left.  Our Gulf coast off Padre Island will never be confused Monterey Bay, but that's ok.  Notwithstanding your disapproval, there are plenty of great courses here to suit our needs.      

 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 02:54:30 PM by Lou_Duran »

Greg Clark

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Re: Why aren't there better courses in Texas?
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2014, 02:56:17 PM »
As pointed out by Kyle in the previously linked thread, Texas just does not have a number of classic ODG courses.  A few visited for a short time, and produced a few quality offerings, but nothing that would be considered great.  Texas is a boom state, and the modern architecture here is stronger than many on the site give it credit for.  To quantify this a bit (although ratings are clearly a subjective endeavor), 10 Texas courses are currently rated in the Golfweek Modern 200 ratings.  2 more (both Carlton Woods courses) have been on the list for the last 3 years prior to 2014.  And both those courses are on Golf Digests current top 200 OVERALL.  I haven't had the pleasure of playing Wolf Point, but from reviews on the site, if the owner had an interest in the course being rated, it would have a chance at inclusion.

So, basically the state produced 12 of the top 200 courses built in the U.S. (again based on the subjective views of a panel) since 1960.  All of these courses were built between 2000 and 2007.  Most of these I listed in the previous thread.  I don't have the time to compare, but I would imagine that very few if any states have been as prolific on the modern list since the turn of the century as Texas.  Obviously development of golf courses in the country has slowed a bit since '07.  When, and if, golf course development ramps up again (and the state has 2 high profile courses under development now), the continued population and economic rise of the state should keep Texas as a leader in modern golf architecture.

How one uses the word "great" is up for debate, but the title of this thread is why aren't there "better" courses in Texas.  Well there are, and those courses are being recognized.