[Michael Felton]

Hi all,

I've been wanting to do one of these matches things for a while and couldn't think of what courses to do it on. Then it occurred to me that in the two courses at Walton I have a perfect opportunity. I don't know which way it's going to go and there could be a good few close match ups too.

1st hole - each course opens up with a half par hole. A driveable par four on the New and a long, difficult par three on the Old. The Old used to be a par four from the other side of the road, but the tee had to be moved over the road.

The Old hole 1:



The New hole 1:



I'm not the biggest fan of the 1st hole on the Old. I think the 1st on the New is a really good hole though. You can play it safe and be fairly certain of making par. Just hit an iron down the right and you get to look down the flag. Or you can go for the green and then you bring bigger numbers into play. I normally play it safe, but driver at the right edge of the green is a fun shot. Just don't miss it left!

The New takes the first hole.

New 1up

[Michael Felton]

2nd hole

Old Course:



New Course:



Can't really see it on the picture, but the 2nd on the Old is a par 4 of around 460 yards and goes quite steeply downhill and then up the other side. I love this hole. You have a fairly wide landing area from the tee, but I'm always tempted to cut the drive as close to the corner as I can. And there is trouble that way. If you hit a good drive, you end up with a mid to long iron up the hill to the green that's pretty big and quite sloping in parts. You can hit the green and still have 30 yards to go to the hole.

2nd on the New is a shortish par three around 150 yards or so. Green pretty well surrounded with bunkers and all sorts of trouble if you hit your shot poorly. The green is quite undulating and also pretty big. It's a decent chance of a birdie if you hit a good shot and can fathom the putting surface. I like this hole too. It's awkward this early in the round and despite its length it plays harder than you might think.

It's a much closer hole this time round, but I think the Old wins this one by a nose.

Match all square

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

I look forward to your match.  I don't remember the New course nearly as well as the Old, but I know Ken Macpherson was always a big advocate of it.

Last time I stopped through there, I knew something had changed about #1 Old, but I couldn't think what it was.  It was that they'd moved the tee across the road!  When you look at the hole now, you think what an awkward length it is, but you wouldn't think to look across the street for the old tee.

[Peter Pallotta]

Michael, thanks for this.

Brian, thanks for the photo of New-2.  That vista seems ideal for a member's club, i.e. it is so low key and inviting that it can be experienced again and again without ever growing stale. It's as if it allows you to participate in it, rather than to view it from afar.

Peter  

[Michael Felton]

Hole No. 3

The Old:



The New:



This is a tough one. On the Old we have a short par four around 295 or so. There's a big gaping bunker in front of the green that blocks your view of the bottom of the flag unless you play it down the left side, which brings the fairway bunker and other trouble into play. It also significantly narrows the entrance to the green if you have a go at it. Having a go for it also entails aiming down the left, which brings some serious trouble into play. A well designed and fun hole (though one which gets the chop in the combined course).

On the New we have a devil of a par four. It's around 430 yards I think, but you can't hit your drive more than about 255 because the fairway is blocked by a large bunker and a band of heather. I don't much like that it does that, because it takes options away from you. You basically have to lay up. I prefer it if there is a gap up there that you can aim for (wider than the path through the heather). Essentially you always end up with the best part of 200 yards to the green, which is what I like about this hole. The front quarter of the green slopes quite sharply back towards you and to the right, ensuring that any weakly struck shot will miss off to the right. If you overprotect from that you end up in a nasty little bunker to the left of the green that's about three feet deep with a near vertical face and a pretty flat bottom. The remaining three quarters of the green slopes away from you slightly (or at least it feels like that when you play your approach). You have to hit a very good shot to get it close on this one.

I'm torn which way to go on this one. The New's green is definitely the better one, but I think the rest of the hole is better on the Old. I'm giving this one to the New.

New 1up

[Bill_McBride]

In the Ryder Cup there (1969?) the first hole was #2 Old, not exactly a gentle handshake, and some New holes were mixed into a composite course.  I've only played the Old but loved the course and the feel of the place. 

[Michael Felton]

That's right Bill. I will mention the composite course holes as I go. One and three get skipped, but four is played from a very back tee as a par five.

[Jaeger Kovich]

#3 Old takes the New for me.

 If you get lazy and end up just in front of the bunker on the right, your hands will start twitching trying to get the ball up and over the bunker, and stop on the green. From further back on the right you have a better chance with a higher trajectory, but if you want get way up there, it has to stay left, which brings all trees and little hazard-y bits, possibly even ob if you snap one... This is the hole where you figure out that Walton Heath Old plays more like a links than any of the other London area heaths.

[Mark Fedeli]

I'll chime in to represent those who only know the course from a distance.

Hole 1: The New, for the obvious reasons already mentioned.
Hole 2: The New, because you said a short-ish par 3 with a big, undulating green and trouble all around and that's all I needed. Count me in!
Hole 3: The Old, if only because your description of New #3 sounds miserable and your description of Old #3 sounds like great fun.

New 1 Up

[Sean_A]

I am having a hard time understanding the point of the cross bunker combined with a pinched fairway on New #3.  One or the other, so for that reason I would take #3 Old; the aerial doesn't do the hole justice.  Plus, the Old's third has its own cool earthworks and drop off gulley down the right. 

Ciao

[Michael Felton]

The 4th hole. First up we have the Old - I took the liberty of drawing the way that I usually end up playing this hole:



And the New:



As the cards fall, once again we have a short par four up against a long par four. This time the long one is on the Old and it's a brute. It's interesting to note that the best way to hit a shot right where you're aiming is to aim for a central bunker. This one is out of reach into the wind, which might make the hole easier. Downwind it's just about carryable and I'm too stupid not to try. With a crosswind or absent much of a wind, it's right in the middle of my landing zone. And the bunker is deep and unforgiving and if you hit it in there, it's going to cost you a shot. It's an interesting hole in that a significant amount of the trouble is well short of the green. A good drive will therefore leave the good player without too much to concern himself with hazard wise. However, if you don't hit it in the centre bunker and opt for the heather instead, then those three bunkers and the heather around 50-100 yards short of the green suddenly loom large. The green itself has a little gully to the left and some very interesting contouring around the rest of it that makes a chip and run shot very hard to judge. All in all, I very much enjoy this green. It's pretty large and has a general tilt from right to left, but also some subtlety around the place. I like this hole a lot and it deserves its number 1 stroke index.

The New is a short par four as noted. The tee you are on dictates whether it is driveable or not. They've added a couple of tees further back, which extend the hole up to 320 yards uphill, 200 of which is carry and into the wind can demand a good drive or you're in real bother. From the front tee, which I think makes the hole much more interesting, it becomes driveable and all the trouble up around the green comes into effect. There is a bunker front right that is fairly deep and quite challenging, because all the way around the front of the green and around to the back right is a sort of moat like dip. That means that your bunker shot from that bunker (not to mention a pitch from the fairway) has to carry a good distance or it won't make it up that hill. On a longer hole I would consider that a little unfair, but on a hole that's no more than 260 yards from the back of the regular tee, I love it. There is another bunker on the left, a little further from the green. If you go in that one, you'll have to manage a 40 yard or so carry to make the green and if you don't make it you'll be in some quite deep heather. It's a short hole, but fraught with danger and represents the third half par hole in the first four. The green site itself is also very good indeed, with lots of subtle breaks that I never seem to be able to get the hang of. It's also a very large green for the length of the hole, but it doesn't play like it. The front right area is quite narrow and the consequences of missing either long or short can be a very awkward chip.

When I started writing this hole up, I thought that the Old would win, but as I've been through it I think that the New takes it. Only from the more forward tee though, which I'm going to say we are playing today and so the New wins.

New 2 up

EDIT: It's worth noting that the 4th on the Old plays as a par five on the composite course from a tee well back and to the right. That makes the bunkering up near the green an issue from a good drive too and pretty much removes the centre bunker from being an issue. For the purposes of this though, we're playing the Old, so the above stands.

[Michael Felton]

Thanks for the photos Brian - I hope you don't mind me pillaging one. I just wanted to give everyone an indication as to the size of the green on this hole:



The green lines represent approximately where the edges of the green are. When the flag is where it is in this picture, if you go for the green and leak it a little right into that greenside bunker, you'll have a 40 yard bunker shot, which for many is no guarantee of getting down in three more. Especially if you're up by the lip. If you're unfortunate enough to find that bunker on the left, you'll have about 30 yards of heather and humps to carry as you can see in Brian's second photo. This, to my mind, should be what a short four is about. It gives you a chance to hit the green and make birdie, but if you don't hit a good shot, you're going to have to work very hard for a par. Making bogey here on what one feels should be one of the easiest on the course is not a good situation to be in, because the New gets a lot harder.

That's also why I don't like the new back tees. From there, it's just hit it in the fairway and wedge it on the green. You have to hit the fairway or you're in trouble, but it takes away all the risk/reward from the hole and makes it just an average hole.

[Mark Fedeli]

I was leaning toward the Old, because the center bunker was very intriguing. However, after reading what Brian had to say and seeing his pics, I've been swayed over to the New. Even more so after you showed how large the green is, Mike.

Ah well, I tried very hard to go with the long par 4 over the short, but just couldn't do it.

Hole 1: New
Hole 2: New
Hole 3: Old
Hole 4: New

New 2 Up

[Michael Felton]

Hole 5:

The Old:



The New:



This match up is a little more even and in theory therefore ought to be a little easier. The 5th on the New is a long hole whatever tee you play from. The 5th on the Old is about 380 from the regular tee, but they have added a couple. One at 440 and the other at 485. At 485 it's a beast of a hole. I much prefer it at 380 and that's also where it is played for the Ryder Cup course. On the New, the 5th is around 460 or so from the regular tee and also the tips. Just the angle changes.

So, the Old. There is a quite deep bunker down the right hand side of the fairway that gets a fair amount of action. The main reason for that is the serious trouble (lost ball type heather) down the left. The bunker is deep on the sides and at the rear, but fairly open at the front. The only problem is that the front points you about 100 yards right of the green. Upshot of which is you really don't want to go in that bunker. From the 380 tees it's carryable for me, but not from 440 (and from 485 I can't reach it unless it's downwind). This is one of the first holes where you discover how narrow the course actually plays in the summer. The fairway is pretty wide, but you have to hit the middle or the first thing that will stop your ball is the heather (or that bunker). The camber of the fairway does however follow you around the corner, so a fade is a safe shot with the right to left dogleg, but a draw will see you a long way down there (if you dare). A good drive will leave you with somewhere between a long iron and a wedge depending on the tee you're playing to what is comfortably the most undulating green on the course, with a general back to front tilt. As is typical at Walton, the green is large, but it plays more like 8 sections of green and you have to hit the right one if you want a decent chance at a birdie. Otherwise you're hanging on for dear life. The bunker on the left of the green is very deep and there is quite a runoff on the green that will gather down to it. If you miss the green right with your approach, you don't have to overcook things too much before you're in that bunker. The right hand side and the back of the green all sits below the level of the putting surface, making recovery shots quite awkward. All in all, I like this hole a lot and I think it's one of the prettiest on the courses.

The New as I said is a long and difficult par four. It doglegs to the right, but this time the camber is against the bend. There are a couple of bunkers on the corner that you need to hit it over if you are to reach the green reliably in two. A driver hit over the left edge of the left bunker will run through the fairway and the heather down there is pretty nasty. The other issue is that the heather pokes out a fair bit behind those bunkers and if you push it a fraction you'll get stuck in there. Then that next bunker in the centre of the fairway really comes into play. Do you play short or try to clear it? It's very cleverly placed for the person who misses the fairway off the tee (I once hit my drive in there - hit it perfectly and it must have got one heck of a bounce - not amused. grumble grumble). You do also have the option of playing something shorter to the left of the bunkers, but then you'll wind up with a very long second shot to a narrow entrance to the green. If you do manage to negotiate the tee shot, the bunker on the front right blocks your view of the green and there are some curious undulations at the front, making a run in shot difficult to judge (I must confess I sometimes wonder if that was originally like that or if the land has subsided a little). The bunker on the left is quite elevated and the green slopes sharply away from it. Don't shortside yourself in there. Off the green to the right and the back there are some wonderful little bumps and hollows that can make chipping interesting. Other than the aforementioned bank on the left and nooks and crannies at the front, the green is relatively flat.

They are both decent holes in their own right. I think the New is just a little bit too difficult to really be playable unless you hit a perfect tee shot. I know that that has its place, but I just enjoy playing the 5th on the Old more (which is plenty difficult too). I'm giving this one to the Old.

New 1 up

[Tony_Muldoon]

Michael  thank you for taking the time to post this.

I'm greatly enjoying this thread and so far agree with your choices.  But I have a problem with this format for comparing courses.  I have a clear favourite at Walton Heath and a hole by hole may not come down on its side.  But playing the course I find one provides more excitement, has a better flow and seems to me to have the more interesting land (i.e. a bit more elevation change).  Those sort of things are important but maybe people who want to play this game should give extra holes to their favourite from the start – a handicap for the other if you like.  In my case I'm going to add 2 holes to the score of the......

[Michael Felton]

Michael  thank you for taking the time to post this.

I'm greatly enjoying this thread and so far agree with your choices.  But I have a problem with this format for comparing courses.  I have a clear favourite at Walton Heath and a hole by hole may not come down on its side.  But playing the course I find one provides more excitement, has a better flow and seems to me to have the more interesting land (i.e. a bit more elevation change).  Those sort of things are important but maybe people who want to play this game should give extra holes to their favourite from the start – a handicap for the other if you like.  In my case I'm going to add 2 holes to the score of the......

Thanks Tony - it's fun to do. I know that comparing hole to hole, you're going to lose out on something somewhere. I know that by way of example, the last par three on the New is the 10th. The Old feels much more balanced for that. We'll see how things pan out, but I think that sort of thing is well added to a summary at the end. If I were to give a lead to course A to reflect on that stuff when we started and it went heavily toward course A anyway, the result could be known very early. I don't want one course winning 6&5. That would be anticlimactic. At the same time, I'm trying not to let that affect how I'm calling the holes.

[Mark Fedeli]

I'm torn. A lot to like on the Old, but I really, really like the New as a thinking man's three-shotter. Or, as a situation where laying up off the tee to play it in 3 shots winds up being a very attractive strategy versus a competitor who only bombs away. In fact, I could see it being one of my favorite holes on the course. Seeing as all I have to go on are Mike's descriptions and the overheads, I'm sticking with my instinct and giving this one to the New.

Hole 1: New
Hole 2: New
Hole 3: Old
Hole 4: New
Hole 5: New

New 3 Up

[Jaeger Kovich]

The 5th green on the Old is pretty wild, which is a good thing. By far the most contour on any of the 36 holes. The long time pro, Ken McPhereson, was telling me that James Braid, the first pro, was convinced the contours had exaggerated over the years. Some kind of settling problem, they guessed. Either way, the green is the most important element of #5 Old, and am looking forward to it through most of the weaker #4.

[Michael Felton]

Thanks Jaeger, that last picture really gives a feel for how undulating that green is. It falls away considerably to the right of that picture, which is the front of the green as the hole plays.

On to number 6:

The Old:



The New:



Back to two quite different holes, although each one employs a similar tactic to befuddle the player.

The Old - this is a very difficult par 4. I think this might be the hardest of the entire 36 on site. It's about 440 yards uphill and has two big bunkers on the left of the fairway. Both of them are deep enough that you're pitching out from them. At times you can miss them to the left and get an okay lie as there isn't much heather over there, although the club are trying to regenerate it. The fairway is fairly narrow and it looks even narrower because the first part of the hole is more uphill than the rest of it. That generates a semi-blind feel to the tee shot. All you can see from the tee is a band of heather across the front of the fairway, the two bunkers on the left and the heather on the right. Makes it very difficult to trust it. The heather up the right is sparse in parts and thick in parts, so you can get lucky, but best not to rely on that. Balls get lost over there fairly frequently. From the fairway, you have an approach to a green which has a false front on the front left quarter and some great mounding around the right hand side. At the end of the false front on the left is a quite deep bunker and in front of that is a large area of cut grass. If the flag is back left, you really don't want to miss short left. If you hit it front right though, you have a fairly flat putt (albeit a very long one). Another large green, which is helpful on a hole that plays so long. The green, aside from the false fronting is fairly flat, but with several subtle breaks that I still haven't managed to fathom. Even though it's a tough par four and a potential card wrecker, I very much enjoy the challenge that this hole presents. Hitting the fairway has a major premium here and it's better to be in it and 200 yards away than in the heather and 130. That's the solution to bomb and gouge by the way. Heather.

The New - a par three. Like the Old this one plays uphill and also like the Old, you can't see the landing area for your first shot. In this case it's because those two bunkers on the right are deep and have a high lip, which combined with the uphill slope of the hole serves to block the bottom three feet or so of the flag. It's around 170 yards or so this one and it plays uphill and into the prevailing wind. It's far from an easy hole and has a wonderful green site. As the Old, the green falls away sharply to the front and the left, with a small section of green that you can see from the tee at the front left. I think I've seen the flag there once in my time playing the course. If you hit it there from the tee, avoiding a three putt is no easy task. Much easier to make three than it is from those bunkers though. The green sits on top of a little hill and falls away on all sides. If you're chipping from anywhere more than a foot off the green, you have about 2-3 feet of elevation to gain with your shot. Makes for some very interesting short game shots. Note from the overhead shot how the green surround is all shaved. Nothing to stop your ball trundling down that hill. I think a very well maintained green surround.

I like the Old 6th very much and I don't want it to lose, but I think that in the green site of the New, the New is lipping in a 15 footer to win this one by the narrowest of margins.

New 2 up

[Michael Felton]

Number 7:

Old:



New:



We have here a par 3 on the Old up against a par 4 on the New. The Old's hole is a tough one, especially if the greens are firm. The bunker on the right defends the right half of the green and everything slopes from right to left. Any shot turning over will struggle to hold the green and if the pin is on the right, you have to hit a very precise shot to get it close. There's a deep hollow in front of the green that's not a good spot, but shouldn't really be in play. There's a little drop away on the left of the green that's only a foot or two high, but makes for another awkward chip if you miss. Oh and don't hit it in that bunker if the flag's on the right. Flag is the only thing that will stop it.

On the New, we have a very enjoyable par four. There's a bank of heather that runs across the front of the fairway, which serves to block your view of the fairway. The fairway also sits at an angle to you, which always messes me up. There is a deep hollow off the left of the fairway that looks like it could be an old bomb crater that's filled with heather and there is quite thick heather all the way along both sides of the hole. The hole slopes quite downhill until reaching a low point around 40 yards short of the cross bunker. It then starts to climb again all the way up to the green. That often means a downhill lie for an uphill shot to a green that is quite heavily contoured. It slopes all the way from back to front, and is steep enough at the front that a ball landing there will roll back. There's also a steep bank off this green on all sides. It's surrounded by a short grass moat almost. Missing the green is bad news from that front. Hitting the green a long way from the flag is also not a great situation. It's a difficult green to two putt if you're not close to the hole and not an easy birdie even if you do. A relatively short par four that offers up a birdie chance, but you have to hit good shots to get it. I like this hole and the New is on a bit of a run here.

New wins.

New 3 up

[Jaeger Kovich]

I really like #7 Old.

There are some really cool hollowed out contours short left, and a green which can really punish aggressive play... Good choice with New #6. The two best par-3's on back-to-back.

[Sean_A]

Six Old is too damn narrow.  I think those bunkers left were added sometime in the living past.  This hole sort of caps a generally narrowing start.  Old #7 is a sleeper hole.  Doesn't look like its up to much, but a lot of subtle stuff combines to make a cool hole.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

5 Old the scene of one of Tony Muldoon's finest approaches when he fired a high towering iron into the middle of the green......majestic!

[Tony_Muldoon]

5 Old the scene of one of Tony Muldoon's finest approaches when he fired a high towering iron into the middle of the green......majestic!

I'll never forget it Mark, and you'll never let me forget I was playing 14 New at the time. 

[Michael Felton]

On to number 8

Old:



New:



Two par 5s here. Quick brag time. I made a 2 on the Old once. That was kind of fun.

The Old - I've shown two different lines of play here. The shorter one is just about 500 yards and the longer one is a new back tee that's more like 600 yards. The hole plays uphill all the way, especially up at the green. I've never played from the way back tee, but there's another one at 550 that I have played. It's a healthy carry to the fairway from that one, let alone the back one. I am told that Johan Edfors hit this green in two from the back tee in the US Open qualifier. That's ridiculous. I think it's a more interesting hole from the regular tee. It turns right to left from there and the inside corner is littered with heather and gorse type stuff. Bad idea to cut the corner quite close IMO. The bunker on the outside of the corner is fairly carryable from that front tee and barely reachable from the 550 one. Hit the fairway and you have a decent crack at the green, but you have to hit a good shot. It's a green with a large false front that fills the front third of the green. Leak it slightly left and the ball will run away into the bunker on the left. Not like it opens up much on the other side either. The green itself is very small by Walton's standards and is fairly flat on the top part, with some subtle contours to contend with. The two bunkers back in the fairway shouldn't really come into play from the regular tee if you hit the fairway, but if you miss, they serve to really narrow the feel of the landing area for a layup. This is another hole that yields no easy up and down for a missed green. The false front is about three feet high I would guess and the green falls away on all sides. I like this hole very much. It's an awkward par 5, but much the  better for it. After I made my 2, I don't think I made a par or better for about a year. What the golf gods give with one hand they take away in spades thereafter apparently.

The New is also a dogleg to the left, but sports a much more generous fairway and has a bank covered in heather that runs across the fairway right at the outside end of the landing range. Downwind, you have to be careful not to run through. From the end of the fairway, it's around 230 yards or so to the green I think. One of the major issues with this bank is if you miss the fairway (which does take a pretty poor shot it must be said) you can have real difficulty clearing that bank. Suddenly five becomes a very good score if you miss the fairway. The fairway further up is narrowed by a grass bunker on the right and another bunker on the left. If you manage to thread it through all of the bunkering you'll wind up on what is quite a large and sloping green. I find it very hard to hit it close with a pitch. The front right third or so of the green slopes back towards the fairway and to the right and a pitch that hits that will stick, but beyond that it slopes away and it's quite hard to stop it. Another tough green to find a line on. There's no general slant to the back part of the green so every putt seems to break differently. Missing this green does however for once leave a relatively flat chip. Another hole I enjoy and I'm not sure how to call this one.

The Old as you can see in the picture gets very close to the M25 and it's really this hole where I notice the sound of the motorway. I like both holes, but I think the Old is slightly more challenging and I'm not a huge fan of fairways being completely blocked. This one is going to the Old.

New 2 up

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