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J_ Crisham

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2014, 12:56:16 PM »
Paul\Sven,   The other statistical surprise was that #4 scored harder than #15. With the East wind to the front right and left hole locations they couldn't get close to the pin even with 8 or 9 irons which was the typical approach club. Guys that went pin hunting often ended up either deep or in the bunkers. My guess is at that high level of play length isn't the factor in higher hole scoring but wind affectations  on specific hole locations.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #101 on: May 12, 2014, 01:09:33 PM »
Paul\Sven,   The other statistical surprise was that #4 scored harder than #15. With the East wind to the front right and left hole locations they couldn't get close to the pin even with 8 or 9 irons which was the typical approach club. Guys that went pin hunting often ended up either deep or in the bunkers. My guess is at that high level of play length isn't the factor in higher hole scoring but wind affectations  on specific hole locations.

Jack:

The 4/15 scoring doesn't surprise me (although I'm curious as to what distances they played).  Those guys are wizards with long irons and woods, and 15 is a fairly easy green to hit if you're within a comfortable range (one gets in trouble off the tee by letting the length of the hole get in your head).  Tough 4, but easy 5.

4, on the other hand, is an unforgiving green.  With a bit of firmness, anything but a finely judged shot is going to leave a tough up and down.  Throw in the trouble to be found off the tee, and the strokes can pile up pretty quickly.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #102 on: May 12, 2014, 02:59:05 PM »
Here is a cut-and-paste of a post from Dan Moore on Phil McDade's previous thread.  These figures represent aggregate data from the two stroke play qualifying rounds.  The cut came at 151 (9 over), only 7 players were even or better, and the medalists scored -2.

#6 was the second most difficult in relation to par; #17 was the most difficult.  (Jack -- not sure if you have data the include the match play rounds as well.)

Hole   Yards   Par   Average   Rank
           
1   346   4   4.144   15
2   572   5   5.208   11
3   219   3   3.446   6
4   384   4   4.41     7
5   400   4   4.484   3
6   185   3   3.494   2
7   519   5   5.131   17
8   418   4   4.269   9
9   375   4   4.231   10
OUT   3418   36   38.817
   
10   171   3   3.176   14
11   594   5   5.458   5
12   144   3   3.115   18
13   371   4   4.208   12
14   329   4   4.138   16
15   454   4   4.478   4
16   408   4   4.199   13
17   197   3   3.497   1
18   567   5   5.288   8
IN   3235   35   37.558
   
TOTAL   6653   71   76.375   

J_ Crisham

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #103 on: May 12, 2014, 03:05:19 PM »
Here is a cut-and-paste of a post from Dan Moore on Phil McDade's previous thread.  These figures represent aggregate data from the two stroke play qualifying rounds.  The cut came at 151 (9 over), only 7 players were even or better, and the medalists scored -2.

#6 was the second most difficult in relation to par; #17 was the most difficult.  (Jack -- not sure if you have data the include the match play rounds as well.)

Hole   Yards   Par   Average   Rank
           
1   346   4   4.144   15
2   572   5   5.208   11
3   219   3   3.446   6
4   384   4   4.41     7
5   400   4   4.484   3
6   185   3   3.494   2
7   519   5   5.131   17
8   418   4   4.269   9
9   375   4   4.231   10
OUT   3418   36   38.817
   
10   171   3   3.176   14
11   594   5   5.458   5
12   144   3   3.115   18
13   371   4   4.208   12
14   329   4   4.138   16
15   454   4   4.478   4
16   408   4   4.199   13
17   197   3   3.497   1
18   567   5   5.288   8
IN   3235   35   37.558
   
TOTAL   6653   71   76.375   
Andrew, Yes , the final numbers I saw varied slightly. #6 edged out 17. # 4 also ended up harder than 15 . Amazing the miniscule difference of .003 on #6/17 in medal play. Although I question stroke averages in situations where putts are given or balls picked up. How does that work?

Ken Fry

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #104 on: May 12, 2014, 03:42:04 PM »

Although I question stroke averages in situations where putts are given or balls picked up. How does that work?


Jack,

These stats are from the first two rounds of the qualifying tournament in medal play.  Match play began after these two rounds.

Ken

J_ Crisham

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #105 on: May 12, 2014, 04:09:04 PM »
Ken-  I was there every day except the first day of match play. My question was poorly phrased- the final numbers I saw had included those from match play- obviously they are given short putts or pick up.

Paul OConnor

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #106 on: May 12, 2014, 04:25:10 PM »
I've played 16 at OFCC hundreds of times over the years. I had my first of 3 Olympia aces on 16 some 20 years ago.  I've played 6 at Beverly countless times. OFCC North 16 is a better hole. Better terrain, more trouble with the winding creek and OB/lost ball possibility left. 6 at Bev looks more innocent, but to me anyway, it's harder. The green is harder to hit and harder to hold. Maybe Paul O'Connor would call it a pig and look for lipstick, but it's a very stern test of a medium-to-long one-shotter.

This hole is not a pig. 

So I looked up some old stats for the Illini Invitational on OFCC North, in 2010, the 16th hole, at 215, was the second toughest hole the first round, a +.33, the sixth toughest the second round at +.23, and the third hardest the third round at +.33.  Maybe medium to long downhill par threes are just hard holes, and the 6th at Beverly is one of those holes. 

Ken Fry

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #107 on: May 12, 2014, 09:19:22 PM »
Ken-  I was there every day except the first day of match play. My question was poorly phrased- the final numbers I saw had included those from match play- obviously they are given short putts or pick up.

Jack,

I do apologize.  I saw the stats Andrew posted and thought those were the ones your were referencing.

Ken

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #108 on: May 12, 2014, 10:36:57 PM »
 
Andrew, Yes , the final numbers I saw varied slightly. #6 edged out 17. # 4 also ended up harder than 15 . Amazing the miniscule difference of .003 on #6/17 in medal play. Although I question stroke averages in situations where putts are given or balls picked up. How does that work?
[/quote]

Jack -

I'm not sure how the Senior Am folks handled that previously, nor would I state with confidence how the Western Am folks will handle it this summer.

But suffice to say, I'm very interested to see how the strokes fall when the Players hit the course in late July....

Cheers, Andrew

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2014, 08:45:51 AM »
Hole #7 (Par 5, 561 yds / 529 yds)

The drive and layup – The player exits the back-right corner of the sixth green and walks down the bank past the rear edge of the right greenside bunker.  From there, the player hopefully will continue straight ahead to the nearest pad of the seventh tee, as the pads to the left (north) can considerably lengthen an already uncomfortable tee shot.

As Ran’s profile and other threads already have noted, the tee shot plays significantly uphill.  A carry of 200-225 yards due south is required to clear the ridge line.  Three bunkers cut into the hill just below the plateau, one on the left and two on the right.  If the golfer’s tee ball falls short of the hill and into one of the bunkers, a wedge or nine iron is the prudent play.  From the rough or fairway down below at the base of the hill, a longer club can be used.

If the tee ball clears the ridge but runs into the left or right rough or tree line, the golfer will likely be asked to shape his next shot with bend and a low flight in order to advance the ball as far as possible toward a pair of cross bunkers that drape across the fairway around 75 yards short of the green.

And finally – in order to acknowledge that this sometimes does happen -- a solid drive that carries the hill benefit from a forward kick, as the land slopes away from the player toward the green.  Players of modest length will contemplate their preferred yardage and angle when choosing a layup club.  Big hitters will look for the barren white tree on the left side of the fairway, as it marks a carry of around 225 yards to clear the cross-bunkers and run (or fly) the ball onto the green.  It can be done, but it is challenging due to the increasingly narrow alley formed by trees that pinch in from both sides of the fairway around the cross-bunkers.

The approach – The approach is defined by how well the player positioned his lay-up, as the pinching trees can require even shots from the fairway to be worked left or right to find the appropriate side and level of a small but rollicking green.
 
Two traps, short-left and short-right, provide further protection, as does a large tree that stands off the back-right of the surface.  But a clean lie in the bunker is generally preferred to a gnarly one in the rough over the back, as the green again generally cants from back to front.

Others will have to comment on a typical approach following a miss after going for the green in two.  Although I can reach the “go / no-go” tree, I find the cross-bunkers and narrowness of the opening too be an effective deterrent when holding a three-wood.

The green – This green is a smallish oval with defined plateaus near the front and middle-left, with a smaller shelf rising at back-left and a collecting saucer in the middle- and back-right.  The saucer and the general back-to-front slope of the surface make two-putting a worthy challenge when traversing from one section of the green to another.  Many a second putt will involve a testy slider with considerable break for the length of putt.

Other commentary – This green will look and feel different from others on the course, owing to its fairly exposed and raised profile and growing condition issues caused by the large tree to its right.  It typically plays a bit firmer and faster than the rest, and is almost without fail in worse shape.  If the Club can find a way to keep players on the eight tee safe from approaches into seven other than keeping the large tree – or if the tree falls victim to a midnight chainsaw hit-and-run – then perhaps the excellent grounds crew could restore more consistent conditions.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2014, 08:58:00 AM »
A great three-shotter for the typical club golfer, this gem demands precision on all three shots. The tee shot is intimidating for most, the second shot is played on a fairway that narrows like an ironing board and the third is into a very small, rumpled and firm green. This is the only USGA spec green on property and it's a constant source of agronomic challenges. At least eight huge oaks have been removed around this green, but the bent grass keeps getting bitch-slapped by the poa annua. No around of deep-tining and top dressing seems to have lessened the trampoline like effect here. Coming in with more than 8-iron is iffy at best.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Josh Tarble

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2014, 09:04:53 AM »
I've found that Ross designed excellent 3-shotters, that had to have been beasts back when they were originally built.  From the description it sounds like that's the case with the first to at Beverly. 

Do the cross bunkers come into play for a standard  layup or are they more a deterrent for those going after the green in two? 

Matthew Sander

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2014, 11:08:31 AM »
I've found that Ross designed excellent 3-shotters, that had to have been beasts back when they were originally built.  From the description it sounds like that's the case with the first to at Beverly.  

Do the cross bunkers come into play for a standard  layup or are they more a deterrent for those going after the green in two?  

Josh,

From my experience I would say...both? Obviously, the decision to lay up or have a go is dictated by the tee shot. Getting a little too aggressive with a lay up could find your ball in a cross bunker. If going for the green in two, a solidly struck shot should clear the cross hazard fairly easily. However, hit the shot a little thin and it could be another story.

On another note, I like Terry's ironing board comparison. As a bit of a Star Wars nerd (who isn't?) I see these holes more like the targeting apparatus on Luke's X-wing as he's flying through the channel along the surface of the Death Star - ever-narrowing at the margins until arriving at the fixed target point on the horizon.

There you have it...I've gone and exposed myself.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 03:29:21 PM by Matthew Sander »

J_ Crisham

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2014, 11:27:08 AM »
Going for #7 in two is the fool's move. Anything slightly offline is swatted down by the sentinel oaks lining the fairway. If your ball lands in the rough you are completely screwed under the oaks. Balls that carry the cross bunkers leave a dicey pitch off a tight lie to some deceptively hard pins. The 3rd from behind the bunkers is 105- 120 yds. A nice distance  for a wedge that can stop on the proper tier. Easy bogey if you get out of position. My favorite par 5 on the course. Green does need to be regrassed sooner rather than later. The end of the toughest stretch on the course.

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2014, 03:27:09 PM »
I've found that Ross designed excellent 3-shotters, that had to have been beasts back when they were originally built.  From the description it sounds like that's the case with the first to at Beverly. 

Do the cross bunkers come into play for a standard  layup or are they more a deterrent for those going after the green in two? 

Josh -

Given my recollection of how far you hit the ball, I'd take a slight different tack than the other replies and say that for you, the encroaching tree limbs would prove a greater deterrent than the cross-bunkers if considering going for it in two.

With a good drive, you'd probably have between a 4-iron and 7-iron coming in.  So carrying traps that sit 75 yards short of the green won't be an issue.

It's more about the angles into the green created by the narrowing tree lines, and the resulting potential need to work the ball on your second shot.  If you clip a tree limb on an overcooked draw or fade, your ball can be knocked down into the cross-bunkers or flung away from the fairway into deep rough at best, and deep rough stymied by a tree at worst.

Cheers, Andrew

Terry Lavin

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #115 on: May 19, 2014, 03:44:34 PM »
I don't think it's a sucker play for a great player to go for the green in two.  It's not that easy a shot because of the narrowness of the fairway and the oak canopy effect, but it's still worth the gamble if one can reasonably pull off the shot.  My only beef about the two bunkers about 90 yards out from the green is that they occupy too much of the fairway and we wind up with turf damage caused by cart traffic around either side of the bunkers.  Beverly is known as a walking club, but in truth half of the play is from carts despite the fact that we have as many caddies as we do members.  There just isn't much driving room on either side of these bunkers and the grass gets beat up very early in the season and never recovers.  It makes me wish we only had one small bunker in the center.  That's a small complaint to raise on such a good hole, but it's worth noting, IMHO.  Finally, I played yesterday and this green is already in piss-poor condition even though every other green is just about perfect.  Makes me rue the day we blew it up and put the USGA spec green in with the L-93 bent grass.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Phil McDade

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #116 on: May 20, 2014, 10:21:23 AM »
The cross bunkers mentioned here are part of Prichard's renovation, and not original to the Ross design. The shorter player off the tee at least has to think about them for his second shot -- try to carry, not carry, or thread the needle (a dubious proposition). It's something I liked about the hole, as second shots at many a par 5 are designed with the better player in mind -- have a go at the green, or not. This hole, with the added Prichard bunkers, forces the lesser golfer to think about what to do with his second shot.

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #117 on: May 20, 2014, 01:51:25 PM »
Terry:  Is the "go tree" on the left side of the fairway still there?  I honestly can't remember.  Its bark was lighter than the trees around it.   

Dave --

It's still there, patiently awaiting your heroics during the July GCA play-day  ;)

Cheers, Andrew

Terry Lavin

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #118 on: May 20, 2014, 04:33:40 PM »
Yep, the sycamore is there.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2014, 02:48:38 PM »
Hole #8 (Par 4, 424 yds / 403 yds)

The drive – The golfer exits the seventh green and finds the eighth tee immediately to the right.  The hole turns back to play north-northwest, angled toward the western boundary of the property.

Again, a fairly wide fairway is flanked by bunkers that cut into the short grass to complicate the drive – one on the right at around 200 yards and another on the left at around 260 yards from the tee.  The preferred angle for the approach, and thus the preferred line off the tee, is determined by the location of the pin on this exceptionally long (65+ yards) green.

Front hole locations open up for approaches from the right side of the fairway, whereas most middle and all back pins are best attacked from the left.  The fairway bunkers are thus perfectly placed – a refusal to challenge one of them will result in a longer shot, a worse angle or oftentimes both.

The width of the fairway encourages an aggressive swing with driver, but repeated plays will teach the golfer that a slight sacrifice of distance can be worth placement on the correct side of the fairway.

The approach – The approach shot plays slightly downhill.  A centerline bunker crops up from the fairway around 70 yards short of the green, and three more traps short of the green – one on the left and two on the right – frame a narrow chute of fairway that leads to the putting surface.  These hazards sit more directly in the line of play if the player has not challenged the appropriate fairway bunker off the tee, and less so on the better line.

The green sits at a slight angle away from the fairway from front left to back right; think 1pm on the face of a clock.  Front pin locations thus will generally favor approaches that bend right to left, and back locations the opposite. 

Club selection can vary dramatically depending on the pin location due to the massive length of the green – I personally have hit anything from hybrid to sand wedge.

The green – This is perhaps the one part of the course that least lends itself to a non-photo tour, as the combination of shape, size and elevation changes within the green are difficult to describe.  In basic terms the green is really three greens – a flattish front section that served as the original Ross green, then a slightly inclined middle section that bridges to a later addition, which sits atop a steep uphill shelf.

A back-to-front slope is present in the rear and most of the middle section, whereas the front section almost seems to tilt front to back.  In the front and middle sections, a slight ridge runs along the front-to-back axis creating a hogback effect with middle-to-edge slope toward both the railroad tracks to the left (west) of the green and a low area of rough to the right (east).

Reading breaks here can be a vexing endeavor; it is a green on which I haven’t seen many putts of more than modest length holed.

J_ Crisham

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #120 on: May 22, 2014, 03:01:01 PM »
The smart player will always take notice when on the 5th green the precise location of the pin on 8. You can easily have a 3-4 club difference from a front to back pin placement. The green is long and plays pretty narrow when you 175-180yds left to a back pin. Great green complex.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 03:31:16 PM by J_ Crisham »

Terry Lavin

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #121 on: May 22, 2014, 03:24:40 PM »
This hole was substantially changed decades ago, when the green was changed from a little punchbowl into a Brobdingnagian hourglass shaped monster approximately 150 feet deep.  This was done in an effort to toughen the course up for upcoming Western Opens (won in 63 by Palmer and 67 by Nicklaus).  Then, the green was again redone by Prichard when he renovated the course around ten (?) years ago.  I think it sticks out like a sore thumb, but not in the old-school quirky kind of way.  It just doesn't fit the rest of the course.  Does it make the course harder?  Sure.  Does it make the course better?  I don't think so.  As a result, this is my second least-favorite hole on the course. 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Matthew Sander

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #122 on: May 22, 2014, 03:55:37 PM »
The green is long and plays pretty narrow when you 175-180yds left to a back pin. Great green complex.

8 green is certainly narrow, especially so when approached from the far left hand side. The grassy/humpy hollw to the right must see a lot of action.

A question for the members - do you think the area to the right of the green presents an opportunity for a closely mown runoff/chipping area? I just note the little humps and bumps in there and think the result could be some interesting short game options. Now, that type of approach isn't used anywhere else on the course, so the result might be a bit out of character. Terry already finds the 8th green out of character with the rest of the course, so what's the harm in going whole hog?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 03:57:39 PM by Matthew Sander »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #123 on: May 22, 2014, 04:07:08 PM »
As much as I like the idea of the 8th green, I agree with Terry on the feel of it.  Its incongruous to the rest of the course, especially the punchbowl like feel of the back portion.

The fairway bunkers are worthy of comment, as the staggered intrusions on each side are straight up Ross (and I don't even know if they are his creation).  I wonder if at some point the first bunker on the right extended further out into the fairway.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matthew Sander

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Re: Beverly Country Club -- A Non-Photo Tour
« Reply #124 on: May 22, 2014, 05:13:25 PM »

The fairway bunkers are worthy of comment, as the staggered intrusions on each side are straight up Ross (and I don't even know if they are his creation).  

Also, from the tee the difference in distance to the two fairway bunkers appears much less than it actually is. They may not look equidistant, but the difference seems minimal. In fact, as Andrew mentioned, they are nowhere near a common landing zone. For the first timer this makes the fairway appear much narrower than it is, when in actuality, there is plenty of room to the left/right of the fairway bunkers.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 09:05:50 AM by Matthew Sander »

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