[Sven Nilsen]

Josh:

The real irony in this thread is that Pat Mucci is telling people to try to understand the concept of geometric architecture by looking at aerial images.  He, of all people, should know that golf is played in three dimensions.

One of the major issues Travis raised with the "Willie Dunn System" (aka the Geometric School of Design) is that many of the green surfaces were dead flat.  One can not say the same about the greens built by CBM and Raynor, even those in the aerial of Chicago Golf that may appear so from overhead.

Sven

"We are just beginning to awaken to the fact that the Willie Dunn system is dead wrong - from every standpoint.  What with built-up tees, the regulation cross bunkers and greens either terraced or artificially leveled as flat as a floor, there seems to have been a determined effort to get away as far as possible from the true, natural type of seaside links which have stood out for generations as the highest and best examples of golf course architecture." Walter Travis

[Nigel Islam]

And to add to Sven's point, most Raynor and MacDonald green complexes were every bit the equal of Mackenzie's and Maxwell's.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Josh:

The real irony in this thread is that Pat Mucci is telling people to try to understand the concept of geometric architecture by looking at aerial images.

That is NOT what I stated, that's what you misread and erroneously concluded 

He, of all people, should know that golf is played in three dimensions.

It doesn't take a genius to recognize bunkers shaped like squares and rectangles.

Since I'm not taking those making the inquiries to play GCGC or any other course with evidence of geometric architecture, photos are the next best thing.

One of the major issues Travis raised with the "Willie Dunn System" (aka the Geometric School of Design) is that many of the green surfaces were dead flat.  One can not say the same about the greens built by CBM and Raynor, even those in the aerial of Chicago Golf that may appear so from overhead.

The geometry is not within the putting surface, but at the perimeter of the putting surface

Sven

"We are just beginning to awaken to the fact that the Willie Dunn system is dead wrong - from every standpoint.  What with built-up tees, the regulation cross bunkers and greens either terraced or artificially leveled as flat as a floor, there seems to have been a determined effort to get away as far as possible from the true, natural type of seaside links which have stood out for generations as the highest and best examples of golf course architecture." Walter Travis

Walter Travis just described Garden City.
Have you played it ?
Maybe Walter should have listened to his own advice and maybe you shouldn't have been so quick to quote him without seeing what he produced.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How much of geometric architecture was simply due to their rudimentary construction methods and equipment?  

Would CBM and Raynor still have gone with their sharp edges and geometric shapes if they knew better ways to construct their ideas?

Did they not know something that the other architects of their day did?  I doubt it.

Sven,
Maybe CMB, but it's well known that Raynor didn't know much about golf and perhaps hadn't seen many courses at all.  Maybe an early example of shaper - architect relationship.

Josh:

Have you played Shoreacres?  Its a pretty good place to start to see Raynor's solo work, and how he adapted golf concepts to a particular piece of land.  That course is not the handiwork of a guy who didn't know much about golf.  The 15th hole by itself should settle the question.

I find it slightly ironic that you are suggesting the guys that had the most "engineered" look to their courses developed that look due to "rudimentary construction methods and equipment."  

There is a difference between Geometric Architecture and what CBM and Raynor were doing in the years to come.  It starts with a change in the way hazards were placed, and extends to finding pieces of land best suited for certain concepts, as opposed to imposing those concepts with no regard for the natural benefits of the terrain.

Just because they built holes with hard edges (in certain places), it does not mean they were ascribing to what Travis described as the "Willie Dunn System."

It doesn't mean they weren't, either

Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Pat, are you saying that Travis's contributions to Garden City were not "improvements" as I had  always thought? Thus Emmet came back in and "fixed" what Travis did. I am sorry if I am way off base, but I am not following you 100%. I think we are overall in agreement on the topic though.

[Sven Nilsen]

Nigel:

A lot of this is ground that Pat and I have covered before, he just doesn't remember:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55078.msg1276239.html#msg1276239

Sven

[Josh Tarble]

David and Sven,
Thanks again for your comments....I just wanted to follow up. I had no idea what Arts and Crafts architecture was, so I looked at Tom MacWood's articles in the IMO section.  Fascinating stuff and wanted to link it here for those interested:

Part 1:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/arts-and-crafts-golf-pg-i/
Part 2:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/arts-and-crafts-golf-pg-ii/
Part 3:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/arts-and-crafts-golf-pg-iii/
Part 4:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/arts-and-crafts-golf-pg-iv/
Part 5:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/arts-and-crafts-golf/

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