TPC Sawgrass greens issue--what caused it?

[Tom Allen]

Sorry if this has been posted already (I did not see a topic on it already).  An article talks about the current problems with the greens (right before the tournament, and how misapplication of a product meant to deal with wintery conditions might have contributed.  Anyone know what the product was?  I'm just curious.  (The article on the Golf Channel's Golf Central blog.)

[Howard Riefs]

LINKS!

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/4/30/tpc-sawgrass-greens-to-be-resurfaced-in-15-could-other-signi.html

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/changes-coming-tpc-sawgrass-after-green-trouble/

[Tom_Doak]

Didn't they just spend a kazillion dollars four or five years ago to rebuild the whole course?

[Michael Felton]

Didn't they just spend a kazillion dollars four or five years ago to rebuild the whole course?

Yes I believe you're right.

I played TPC about 10 years ago and my lasting memory of it was how small the greens are. The article linked above on Geoff Shackelford's site mentioned the small greens as being part of the cause of this. That and all the trees. I wonder if Harbour Town suffers similar issues.

Either way it sounds like they plan to clear out some of the trees to open up the green areas and get more sunlight on them.

[Bryan Icenhower]

My wife played it coming up on 4 weeks ago now and they had already were playing 5 temporary greens.  She said they were in very bad shape, and even a few they did play on where not great.  I am guessing she has played the course maybe a half a dozen or so times prior to this round.  Unfortunately no pics.

Wonder if any of the supers here can extrpolate what was used and why the adverse reaction, from the gc.com articl linked above ...
However, Tour officials explained in Wednesday’s memo it was, “an application program that, while widely accepted in the industry, was utilized in a manner that proved to be too aggressive.”

[Tom_Doak]

Didn't they just spend a kazillion dollars four or five years ago to rebuild the whole course?

Yes I believe you're right.

I played TPC about 10 years ago and my lasting memory of it was how small the greens are. The article linked above on Geoff Shackelford's site mentioned the small greens as being part of the cause of this. That and all the trees. I wonder if Harbour Town suffers similar issues.

Either way it sounds like they plan to clear out some of the trees to open up the green areas and get more sunlight on them.

If I recall correctly, in the renovation they ADDED a bunch of trees to increase the difficulty of the course for those who sprayed their tee shots.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Didn't they just spend a kazillion dollars four or five years ago to rebuild the whole course?

Renovation in 2006, regrassed tees, apps, collars and fwys to celebration in 2013.

[Jonathan Webb]

"TPC Sawgrass was designed by World Golf Hall of Fame member Pete Dye, a member of The Institute's Advisory Council and winner of GCSAA's highest honor in 2003, the Old Tom Morris Award. Dye led a $60 million renovation of TPC Sawgrass in 2006 that brought new drainage and irrigation systems and Sub-Air systems to each green, which were re-grassed with MiniVerde bermudagrass. The renovation coincided with a new, gigantic clubhouse and the PGA Tour moving the Players Championship from March to May - eliminating the need to overseed."

http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/tpc_sawgrass_superintendent_has_course_ready_for_players_championship

[John McCarthy]

I may be hallucinating but wasn't a good part of the course under water last year?   

[Ian Larson]

My blind uninformed guess based of of the clue words being used in the media reports is that they were on a nutrition and bio stimulant program with one of the big fert companies. When you hear program, cold winter, shade, trees, density...I'm guessing they went aggressive with biostimulants to force the mini verde into photosynthesis and counter the thinning due to weather conditions to increase density in time for the tournament. If they were top dressing and brushing as well that could make it even worse and or put it over the edge. But who knows. All speculation.

[Randy Thompson]

Here we go again, this seems to happen every five or so years. I remember twenty or so years ago players got a nice apologetic letter in their lockers. I wonder what is the stronger Bermuda they will convert to in 15. I played a long time ago and the greens were small, makes sence to enlarge them imo! I feel sorry for the super who I am sure hasn´t slept since April 14 and hope he doesn´t become the sacraficial lamb! At one time I think they were bent. I wonder if any course has under gone so many surface changes since opening or just changes period. Can´t wait to hear the commentators reaction on TV but I am sure they have been told what they can say and what they can´t. I usually watch without volumn but could be interesting this weekend.

[Howard Riefs]

Not a good situation at Sawgrass as three greens (4, 11 12) are closed for today's practice round.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/sawgrass-closes-three-greens-monday-practice-rounds/?cid=twitter-gc-a-sawgrass-closes-three-greens-monday-050514

[Bryan Icenhower]

That is the same picture from last week, anyone find any posted today that have shown what progress, if any, has been made?

[Jon Wiggett]

Maybe its deliberate. Aren't really crap greens one of the best ways to defend par. Maybe instead of stimping at 12'+ they should be going for .5" HOC stimping at 9" and the odd tuft thrown in to spice it up

Jon

[Ben Lovett]

It seems that Primo Maxx is being blamed now. A plant growth regulator

[Adam Lawrence]

Ben and other supers, what would make Primo kill grass? Overapplication?

[Ben Lovett]

Its one that if used correctly brings great benefits. The very low rate makes it easy to double up your application. We use 200ml a Hct every 2 weeks.
Its not something I would think of using on recovering greens after a harsh winter. It slows down growth of the leaf and promotes rooting
For me its proven great at getting bentgrass greens through very hot summers!

[Randy Thompson]

Sounds fishy to me. Its an excellent product for the ultra dwarfs to slow down growth to keep the thatch under control during periods of excessive growth in sub tropical zones. It has no logical place in a transition period such as early spring when you want to stimulate top growth to return to proper density after a tough winter. So, now what..change the mini verde to champions?? Is champions that much better?? Remove all the politics and you probably will get to the root of the problem...to many hands in the soup!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Sounds fishy to me. Its an excellent product for the ultra dwarfs to slow down growth to keep the thatch under control during periods of excessive growth in sub tropical zones. It has no logical place in a transition period such as early spring when you want to stimulate top growth to return to proper density after a tough winter. So, now what..change the mini verde to champions?? Is champions that much better?? Remove all the politics and you probably will get to the root of the problem...to many hands in the soup!

Tifeagle. Champion (no S) wouldn't be viewed as a "stronger" strain.

[Tom Allen]

Thanks for the info guys--much appreciated.

And just to confirm this latest discussion, I just heard an interview where the tournament director (I think it was the tournament director?) stated that they are 90% sure they are replacing the MiniVerde with TifEagle (but not until after next year's tournament).  Apparently some nearby courses had good success with TifEagle surviving the cold and wet winter.

He also stated the the greens were the smallest ones on the course, and therefore got the most foot traffic.  I believe they want to enlarge them now, so they can add another pin placement as well, to lighten the load a little.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

GCI's Bruce Williams, CGCS, files his report from behind the scenes at TPC Sawgrass, including greens condition; fact, fiction and misinformation; and last minute prep work.

http://www.golfcourseindustry.com/gci-050814-players-championship-sawgrass.aspx

[Ian Larson]

I thought they installed the Precision Air units in their greens to make wet and cold winters a non issue by having the capability to remove excess water and heat up the root zone? Does it not work or do they not use it anymore? That's a tremendous investment for something that doesn't work or doesn't get used.

http://www.tpcsawgrassagronomy.com/2012/09/precision-air-upgrade.html?m=1

[Anthony_Nysse]

I thought they installed the Precision Air units in their greens to make wet and cold winters a non issue by having the capability to remove excess water and heat up the root zone? Does it not work or do they not use it anymore? That's a tremendous investment for something that doesn't work or doesn't get used.

http://www.tpcsawgrassagronomy.com/2012/09/precision-air-upgrade.html?m=1

It only raises the soil temps a few degrees.

[Ian Larson]

I thought it was warmer than that with up to 140 degrees going into the pipe. A few degrees doesn't seem like it should even be advertised as heating.

"Vlach said he’s used the hot air on the greens with the system already installed every day this winter, despite the warm weather. He said that will insure optimum conditions for the Bermuda greens, regardless of how cold the weather might get for the rest of the winter."


http://m.jacksonville.com/sports/golf/2012-01-25/story/precision-air-sub-air-out-underneath-players-stadium-course-greens

[Anthony_Nysse]

I thought it was warmer than that with up to 140 degrees going into the pipe. A few degrees doesn't seem like it should even be advertised as heating.

"Vlach said he’s used the hot air on the greens with the system already installed every day this winter, despite the warm weather. He said that will insure optimum conditions for the Bermuda greens, regardless of how cold the weather might get for the rest of the winter."


http://m.jacksonville.com/sports/golf/2012-01-25/story/precision-air-sub-air-out-underneath-players-stadium-course-greens

  A few degrees is probably not quite correct, but it's was a quick answer. It's like saying sub air will guarantee fast firm conditions, even after it rains. 2011 USOpen proved that theory wrong. It's a good tool, but Mother Nature still controls.
   Ian, you know this, but 140 degrees at the pumping station wont be nearly that warm by the time it goes out the tubes, into the drain lines and to the soil at a 4" depth.
  Many FL golf courses had issues with edges on UD's this winter, us included. Cool, wet cloudy weeks followed by a 22" rain story did us in.