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Peter Pallotta

A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« on: May 01, 2014, 02:25:37 PM »
I have a couple of editions/versions, but was looking through the Pat Ward-Thomas edition with the foreword by Alistair
Cooke. It's very well done, of course, and just a treat.  (Jimmy Demerat's line about relief at Cypress Point's 16th: the only place you can drop is in Honolulu.)  But it struck me: I don't think I've ever read an opinion on here that CONTRADICTS anything in the World Atlas, and of course I've read (and written) probably a hundred thousand posts that basically AGREE (almost word for word) with the World Atlas. Which is to say, we may argue about the existence/nature of principles and ideals and about the possibility for ideal golf courses, but it seems pretty clear that the foundational belief/value system of quality golf course architecture is pretty much set in stone, and won't be changing anytime soon. Do you think that's an accurate assessment?

Peter



« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 02:32:59 PM by PPallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2014, 03:57:04 PM »
Or that everyone who read that book as a kid (myself included) has been brainwashed by it.

Then again, I'm pretty sure Jeff Brauer read it, and he and I aren't always on the same page.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2014, 04:32:09 PM »
I recall getting a copy right after my high school interview with Killian and Nugent (which took some time to come to fruition as a real job....)

It gave credit to George Fazio for redoing Medinah for the 75 Open, with a great story about him returning to the place where he came so close to a title.  Only problem was, Killian and Nugent had just redone a half dozen greens for it  not Faz. I called them up, incensed and outraged on their behalf, since they didn't buy those kind of books often....

So, that was at least one thing I disagreed with.  Haven't really read it in a long time, but it was an age where readers didn't disagree with experts like internet citizens typically do......and we were probably so happy to get that amount of coverage to our favorite subject we didn't complain too much.  At least, it didn't really occur to me to complain about much in that book.....At age 12 or whatever, I hadn't seen any of those courses other than Medinah.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom Bagley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2014, 05:36:06 PM »
I agree with Tom Doak.  I read the original when it first came out (when I was a teenager) and took it as gospel.  It's hard to overcome those early biases.  To my teen-aged mind, the featured courses MUST have been the best courses in the world or they would have not been included.

The original course maps also created a foundation in my mind as to what great courses looked like.  It's funny how often seeing these courses in real life changed my 2-D perception of them.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2014, 05:43:23 PM »
I do remember looking at all those graphics of the golf courses and wondering if greens with "bunker left - bunker right" really constituted great golf architecture.  Having read the HWH article in GD a bit earlier, and a Gary Player architecture article, also in GD, I was familiar enough with both strategic concepts and the notion that Ross used chipping mounds/swales in place of bunkers to question that, even at age 12-14 or so.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Colin Macqueen

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Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2014, 06:44:26 PM »
"Do you think that's an accurate assessment?"

Yes Peter I think it is.  In a facile sense there is nothing new under the sun.

I did not quite realise what I was buying when I bought my first copy. As I idly flicked through the book in the second-hand book shop all those years ago I think I was attracted by the writing of Alistair Cook and the "cartoon" representations of feathers, gutties, cleeks and baffing spoons!  Whoa I just typed "..baffling spoons." and had to correct it!

Even more stupidly I did not twig for three months after discovering the Golf Club Atlas forum that its genesis lay in this tome The World Atlas of Golf which I had been ogling for nigh on twenty years!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2014, 06:53:30 PM »
Nice book, but do not ever buy the Dutch Translation, even if you speak dutch.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2014, 07:01:03 PM »
I enjoy all the editions that I have (3) and look at them frequently.  Bought a few copies for $2 to $5.00.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2014, 09:18:22 PM »
This discussion surfaces every year or so.  It fascinating how many of us got our start with the Atlas.  I can't remember exactly when I got mine but it must have been in the middle 70's.  I had been playing golf since I was a kid and now had kids of my own.  I really did not give much thought to golf architecture or care what courses existed.  I only cared what I shot. Then I read this book. No, I devoured and memorized this book. It forever changed the way I looked at golf. I have played many of the courses presented in the book. Playing those courses became a passion, then an obsession. That book cost me thousands of dollars.  It is the most expensive book ever published.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Greg Taylor

Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2014, 08:31:50 AM »
With google earth and the what have you I can't see a book like it being repeated... the pics were so good, along with the verbiage.

Like everyone else here it all started with the World Atlas... I couldn't imagine what it would be like to go to America and play some of the courses.

Legendary book!

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2014, 02:35:34 PM »
'I can't see a book like it being repeated'

Greg, In a remarkable way it was repeated in 2008 when a completely new edition was published, different authors, all new text, a very different selection of courses and completely new course maps. I won't comment subjectively on the book because I was involved in its development from stage 1.

By way of explanation, the 1976 edition that opened our eyes to GCA was a visionary retirement present for a senior member of staff at Mitchell Beazley, the London publishing company that had succeeded admirably with Hugh Johnson's World Atlas of Wine. WAOG was a stable mate. This senior member of staff (whose name I don't know) flew by helicopter over each of the courses included and supervised the photography used to draw the maps.

There were many subsequent editions, new courses were added, the odd one taken away and those who possess any of these editions will have their own views on the merits and demerits of them. I worked on some of them - by no means all - and there were various reasons for making changes, adding new courses and so on.

So when the decision was taken to produce an entirely new World Atlas an opportunity was presented to consider the book afresh in GCA terms. A panel of writers was assembled who steered the choice of courses with the benefit of 30 years' reflection on the development of GCA since 1976. You can argue that certain courses should not be there, or that others were wrongly omitted, but an attempt was made to reassess architects from Tom Morris onwards to Coore and Crenshaw, Doak etc.

In theory the course maps can be altered electronically for subsequent editions, but to the best of my knowledge this has not yet happened, although reprints have taken place.

If someone has a first edition to hand they might like to post the list of courses then included and open it up for comment as to what courses would be included today if the same writers were in charge. Of course, they would have to change a few maps - Burnham and Berrow with its hole played backwards, Cascades with the wrong course illustrated - and what of courses that are these days off the radar: CC of Bogota, Glyfada, Seefeld, La Manga.....  Have fun! We did!

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2014, 07:45:18 PM »
"If someone has a first edition to hand they might like to post the list of courses then included and open it up for comment as to what courses would be included today if the same writers were in charge."

Mark, It is a bit unclear to me whether my edition is a first edition but I think it is and the authors were Pat ward-Thomas, Herbert Warren Wind, Charles Price, Peter Thomson and Alistair Cooke. Would that be correct?

Nonetheless here is that listing as a start. Anyone care to comment.

Australasia would surely now incorporate Barnbougle and Lost Farm in the mix.

EUROPE
St. Andrews
Carnoustie
Royal Dornoch
Muirfield
Turnberry
Royal Liverpool
Royal Lytham & St. Annes
Sunningdale
Royal Birkdale
Ganton
Royal St. Georges
Royal Porthcawl
Royal County Down
Royal Portrush
Portmarnock
Killarney
Kennemer
Royal Antwerp
Falsterbo
Club Zur Vahr
Olgiata
Chantilly
Nueva Andalicia
Sotogrande
Vilamoura

USA & CANADA
Shinnecock Hills
Augusta
Cypress Point
Oakmont
Baltusrol
The country Club
The National
Olympic
Harbour Town
Winged Foot
Pinehurst
Merion
Seminole
Pine Valley
Firestone
Southern Hills
Medinah
Oakland Hills
Champions
Pebble Beach
Dorado Beach
Cajuiles
Banff
Capilano
Royal Montreal
Mid Ocean
Club de Golf Mexico

ASIA
Hirono
Kasumigaseki
Fujioka
Royal Calcutta
Royal Hong Kong
Singapore Island
Royal Selangor
Bali Handara

AUSTRALASIA
Royal Melbourne
Royal Adelaide
Royal Sydney
Wairakei
Parparaumu

AFRICA
Durban Country Club
Royal Johannesburg
Royal Rabat

SOUTH AMERICA
The Jockey Club
Lagunita


Back to bush bashing in the garden for me!!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2014, 01:54:38 AM »
Inspired by this thread, I found a like-new copy of the 2001 edition and bought it on Amazon for.... $1.00. I still have the original 1976 one somewhere, given to me for Christmas by my grandmother years and years ago.... wish I could find it.

Also found a copy of "100 greatest courses and then some", which is an inferior book but still interesting, and one I used to frequently pick up on library trips.

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2014, 07:41:00 AM »
Colin, Well done! That is the original list of major entries. There was a gazetteer as well with simpler maps and short texts. I, too, must return to the garden - which does my back no good and prevents my playing golf!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2014, 10:38:37 AM »
"If someone has a first edition to hand they might like to post the list of courses then included and open it up for comment as to what courses would be included today if the same writers were in charge."

Mark, It is a bit unclear to me whether my edition is a first edition but I think it is and the authors were Pat ward-Thomas, Herbert Warren Wind, Charles Price, Peter Thomson and Alistair Cooke. Would that be correct?

Nonetheless here is that listing as a start. Anyone care to comment.

Australasia would surely now incorporate Barnbougle and Lost Farm in the mix.

Actually Peter Thomson is the only one of the authors still alive so they wouldn't be adding many new courses.  And I heard he didn't like Barnbougle too much.

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2014, 11:09:24 AM »
PPallotta,

I also have in my possession two books.  When I moved into the office while working for the Dye's I used this book as a reference when I was doing some routing work on golf courses in the Asian Rim.  I liked the maps and even though the drawings did not point out the topography of  golf courses like the National Golf Links, after visiting for the first time back in the middle 80's I could look at the map in the book and recount the visual from memory.

I was just in my 20's at the time and trying to gather as much golf lingo as I could.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2014, 11:29:30 AM »
Tom

'Barnbungle'

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2014, 11:44:36 AM »
"If someone has a first edition to hand they might like to post the list of courses then included and open it up for comment as to what courses would be included today if the same writers were in charge."

Mark, It is a bit unclear to me whether my edition is a first edition but I think it is and the authors were Pat ward-Thomas, Herbert Warren Wind, Charles Price, Peter Thomson and Alistair Cooke. Would that be correct?

Nonetheless here is that listing as a start. Anyone care to comment.

Australasia would surely now incorporate Barnbougle and Lost Farm in the mix.

Actually Peter Thomson is the only one of the authors still alive so they wouldn't be adding many new courses.  And I heard he didn't like Barnbougle too much.

Out of curiosity, have you seen all of the courses that were in that original edition?  If not, are there any that you have missed that you would be excited to see?  Have you seen Banff yet?

Bart

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2014, 10:01:02 PM »

Out of curiosity, have you seen all of the courses that were in that original edition?  If not, are there any that you have missed that you would be excited to see?  Have you seen Banff yet?

Bart:

No, I haven't seen them all.  I'm at 90% -- there are 17 I still haven't seen.

The irony is that there are a few that I'm not at all interested in, because the maps of them didn't look interesting when I was 15 years old, and they still don't -- for example, Royal Selangor or Fujioka.  [Back at you, Mr. Thomson. :) ]  A lot of the others are just places I've never visited yet, a couple of which are somewhat dangerous today.

Here are the ones I've missed:

Royal Antwerp
Falsterbo *
Olgiata
Nueva Andalucia
Sotogrande
Vilamoura
Banff *
Royal Montreal
Club de Golf Mexico *
Fujioka
Royal Calcutta *
Royal Hong Kong
Singapore Island (Bukit)
Royal Selangor
Bali Handara *
Royal Rabat *
Laguinta

I expect I'll see about half of them in the next four years while I'm working on The Confidential Guide [the *'s are the ones I am really interested to see].  But there are hundreds of other courses I would be more interested to see than a couple of these.

I was looking at the list thinking that no one I know has seen every last one of them -- if there would have been, it is my friend Masa Nishijima, but I just double-checked his list and I don't think he has been to Lagunita [or to Venezuela at all].  I guess Bob McCoy is another possibility, but I don't know that he has been to Fujioka -- it wasn't on our tour when Masa arranged for us to see the best Japanese courses many years ago.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2014, 12:42:20 PM »
I think the man who saw all the courses, and for whom the book was a retirement present, was called Jack Tressider. I know no more of him. By the time I became involved with WAOG it was 1990 or so. The editor who commissioned me to compile new material for it was an expert in show dog breeding!

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2014, 01:40:37 PM »
I agree with Tom Doak.  I read the original when it first came out (when I was a teenager) and took it as gospel.  It's hard to overcome those early biases.  To my teen-aged mind, the featured courses MUST have been the best courses in the world or they would have not been included.


Unless you were also reading other popular golf course books of the era. In addition to WAOG, I remember several coffee table books I owned that glamorized the modern courses of the '70's and '80's. I just recently saw one of them in a used bookstore and bought it--100 Greatest Golf Course-And Then Some--the 1986/87 edition put out by Golf Digest. Oh the memories.

In other words, I was also brought up believing SentryWorld (flowers!), Bob O' Link, Concord and Point O'Woods were on par with Seminole, ANGC and Winged Foot. Cool pictures, though, still.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Ryan McLaughlin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2014, 12:09:39 AM »
Holy cow...I just realized what you all were talking about.  I have had this quirky book that I started looking at when I first got obsessed with golf as a kid.  Mine is 1988 version.  I would look through it over and over.  I still pull it out to look at the artistic layouts with the clubhouses accurately depicted.  I still think it is the only place where I have seen great course in Asia and South America.  I didn't think anything of it until I went and look at the title and author.  I am sure the book has been a door stop more often than a coffee table piece but it has been a huge influence on how I appreciate this silly game.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2014, 03:09:27 AM »
Colin

Barnbougle Dunes in included in the current edition, as is Cape Kidnappers. Plus Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath, Paraparuau Beach and Royal Adelaide.  a good collection although NSW would be a good local addition.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2014, 08:06:59 AM »
Peter,

Perhaps your biggest question on the thread "Will the foundational belief/value system of quality golf course architecture is pretty much set in stone, and won't be changing anytime soon. Do you think that's an accurate assessment?" should be posted again as a separate thread, sans the relation to the WAG.  It's easier for folks here to tear apart existing books/courses, etc. than it is to discuss "big ideas."

But, yours is a question we have sort of danced around in many ways here.  Related is just how different is minimalism to mainstream architecture?  I posted a thread like that years ago and got roundly bounced around (you know, to about ASGCA membership criticisms level!) for noting that for all the supposed differences, a Doak/CC course really has its tees, fw, greens and bunkers relatively the same in size and location, etc.  Basically, its their interpretation of bunker styles and a few different uses of ground slopes that caused quite a stir and elevated them to the top, but IMHO, it really wasn't THAT different........

For all TD talks about being more open to blind shots, single tees, eliminating cart paths, etc. etc. etc., in reality, most his courses have very little of those celebrated features.  However, there are some stylistic elements he does very well.  But, does that style constitute a real change in the foundation of architecture, or him just being a better stylist?  You know, he does a nice curly wave while I am putting out beehive hairdos? ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A quick thought on the World Atlas of Golf
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2014, 08:42:49 AM »

.... I was also brought up believing SentryWorld (flowers!), Bob O' Link, Concord and Point O'Woods were on par with Seminole, ANGC and Winged Foot. Cool pictures, though, still.


Me too. That things have changed is heartening. The learning curve slopes upward.

Bob

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