OT (?): The Etiquette of Access

[Dan Kelly]

In a thread that has mysteriously (or not) disappeared, I proposed that those better-attuned than I am to private-club culture should propound the Commandments of Access -- so as to (1) help people avoid violating them (whatever they are) and (2) help avoid the need for threads to mysteriously (or not) disappear.

I advanced this one:

Thou shalt not publicly advertise access to any private club to which thou belongeth not.

Do I hear others?

[Brent Hutto]

When in doubt, consider asking by E-mail or PM whether your posting is appropriate. Ran would be a good one to ask, I'd think.

[ChipRoyce]

Thanks for creating this thread because the love of GCA and playing the game can easily become confused with one's interest to go play many of the great courses (some of which require 'access').

I've always thought that a second set of message boards could / should exist, only view-able by confirmed members, to allow folks to talk about play and offer up opportunities as they see fit. For instance, I would always be happy to facilitate an unaccompanied guest at my club here in NC, although the club may be more interesting from convenience sake than based on prestige / great GCA.

[Phil McDade]

Dan:

Interesting topic. (I was in the middle of reading that thread when page 2 mysteriously disappeared!)

Long ago, I seem to recall Ran posting something about his ideas about forming this website, and his conclusion that -- by necessity -- a website and forum dedicated to candid discussion about great golf architecture would have to include members of private clubs, because (as Willie Sutton might have said) that's where the great architecture is. And that by doing so, there was some risk that participants here would use such "contact" via the discussion board for access.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I don't know the commandments but there's no etiquette of access without access of etiquette. HAIL YEAH I just administered some serious antimetabole upside everybody's heads!!!

[JMEvensky]

I think the issue is more about the club member than the club. Everybody has their own individual idea about offering invitations to play.Some people don't like to be asked and others have no problem with it.

It's pretty easy to tell who is/isn't a private club member on this discussion board. Most seem like they'd be happy to answer any etiquette questions.

[BHoover]

How about not publicly calling out another GCAer who may have committed a breach of access etiquette (whether or not inadvertently)?

[Daryl David]

To paraphrase Tyler Durden:  "The first rule of Access is: you do not talk about access. The second rule of Access is: you DO NOT talk about Access"!

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark - and you used the word 'everybody's' too, which is not a word one sees everyday.

Dan - very nicely written, and the one bit of etiquette you proposed seems very sound. But if you don't mind, I think an editor could shorten in, e.g.

Thou shalt not publicly advertise access to any private club to which thou belongeth not.*

Peter

* Of course, there will be exceptions made.

[Sean_A]

Seems strange that people could get in a bind over this stuff.  Its simple, don't ask for access until you are invited or you know the person well enough.  Even after many years on this board there are very few people I would ask for a game. 

Ciao

[SL_Solow]

Brian;  The thread is down.  However it was clearly stated that the poster you are alluding to had made the point privately via PM.  Many of us have done the same to various access seekers over the years.  The particular individual has been very generous with invitations.  So to "call him out" is inaccurate and unfair.  It is pretty easy to make friends on this board and that inevitably leads to opportunities to play.  The real breach is when it becomes apparent that the reason that one posts is to try to gain access.  Even worse are emails that suggest that a new "friend" would like an invitation.  The real rule is to use common sense.  A private club , if it has a true club feeling, is very much like a member's home.  People don't invite themselves over for dinner to an acquaintance's home and usually don't take a personal invitation as license to invite a bunch of strangers.  So if you think about it that way, you won't go wrong very often.  

[Jason Topp]

With me
- if you are interested in playing at my club, send me a message.  I will accomodate you if I can. 
- I am not a big fan of "plus one" guests. 
- don't be a pain about scheduling. 
- Plan on paying
- follow any rules I highlight for you.
- As host, I am essentially vouching for you.  Make me happy I am doing so.
- Have fun while we play.

I have been hosting GCA people for ten years and I have enjoyed every single experience.


With others:

Don't inquire generally

Don't inquire directly unless you know the potential host, and know he is ok with you asking.

Ask about the shoe rule.  It is the first rule you can screw up and, while it does not matter at most clubs, if it matters, it matters.  Most clubs put their guest rules on their website, but you should probably ask the host beforehand any way.

If a club is one to which everyone wants access, wait to be invited.

[Ryan Coles]

Move to the UK where all this BS is 99.9% irrelevant.

[Sean_A]

The real breach is when it becomes apparent that the reason that one posts is to try to gain access.  Even worse are emails that suggest that a new "friend" would like an invitation.  The real rule is to use common sense.  

SLL - I agree in principle,  but I ALWAYS give the benefit of the doubt with perceived access mongering.  I know some folks sent messages to me requesting I stop trolling for access and I can say that I have never done that and will never do that.  If the people who IMed me knew me, they would know that.  I will happily seek access for a very good mate, but not for myself.  They were simple cases of misunderstanding which is very common with electronic communications. No harm done though.  In my experience with folks on this site, they were and are genuine and decent blokes.  I am not saying bad apples don't exist, but I don't know of any.  As always, its best to live and let live.

So far as I am concerned, if you want play with me at my club, give me a shout and if we can work it, great.  I won't stand on ceremony over a game of golf.  

Ciao

[BHoover]

Brian;  The thread is down.  However it was clearly stated that the poster you are alluding to had made the point privately via PM.  Many of us have done the same to various access seekers over the years.  The particular individual has been very generous with invitations.  So to "call him out" is inaccurate and unfair.  It is pretty easy to make friends on this board and that inevitably leads to opportunities to play.  The real breach is when it becomes apparent that the reason that one posts is to try to gain access.  Even worse are emails that suggest that a new "friend" would like an invitation.  The real rule is to use common sense.  A private club , if it has a true club feeling, is very much like a member's home.  People don't invite themselves over for dinner to an acquaintance's home and usually don't take a personal invitation as license to invite a bunch of strangers.  So if you think about it that way, you won't go wrong very often.  

I just wonder whether it's right to go public with a criticism of another poster unless you absolutely know all the circumstances.  What if he had the express permission of the host/member to invite others?  I know nothing other than what I read in the now disappeared thread.  

Personally, I wouldn't advertise publicly or ask for access--I'd wait to be invited (unless it was a friend of mine, in which case, I'd be unabashed in calling for a favor (see, Brian Finn)).
 

[BHoover]

With me
- if you are interested in playing at my club, send me a message.  I will accomodate you if I can.  
- I am not a big fan of "plus one" guests.  
- don't be a pain about scheduling.  
- Plan on paying
- follow any rules I highlight for you.
- As host, I am essentially vouching for you.  Make me happy I am doing so.
- Have fun while we play.

I have been hosting GCA people for ten years and I have enjoyed every single experience.


With others:

Don't inquire generally

Don't inquire directly unless you know the potential host, and know he is ok with you asking.

Ask about the shoe rule.  It is the first rule you can screw up and, while it does not matter at most clubs, if it matters, it matters.  Most clubs put their guest rules on their website, but you should probably ask the host beforehand any way.

If a club is one to which everyone wants access, wait to be invited.

I think this is entirely reasonable. However, I am fine with receiving inquiries or requests to host at my home course. So don't be shy about asking.

[John Kavanaugh]

Don't kill the golden goose. Keep some things off social media.

[Mark_F]

Why do all of you Yanks get so precious about access?

Any of you post about perhaps coming to Australia, you will get inundated by offers, some of them even from members of courses you might want to play at.  You will be hosted, wined and dined, even if you are not a member anywhere we might want to play should we venture across the Ocean.

Even though access for overseas guests is very easy here. 

Is it just because you're all a bunch of lawyers who don't want to schlep it with tradesmen and podiatrists?

[BHoover]

Why do all of you Yanks get so precious about access?

Any of you post about perhaps coming to Australia, you will get inundated by offers, some of them even from members of courses you might want to play at.  You will be hosted, wined and dined, even if you are not a member anywhere we might want to play should we venture across the Ocean.

Even though access for overseas guests is very easy here.  

Is it just because you're all a bunch of lawyers who don't want to schlep it with tradesmen and podiatrists?

I think it's simply because there are a few guys who like to think they're better than everyone else...or perhaps their underwear are riding a bit too tight. I'm a lawyer and I'd prefer to play with tradesmen, podiatrists and proctologists more so than other lawyers.

[Carl Johnson]

Why do all of you Yanks get so precious about access?

Any of you post about perhaps coming to Australia, you will get inundated by offers, some of them even from members of courses you might want to play at.  You will be hosted, wined and dined, even if you are not a member anywhere we might want to play should we venture across the Ocean.

Even though access for overseas guests is very easy here.  

Is it just because you're all a bunch of lawyers who don't want to schlep it with tradesmen and podiatrists?

As a retired "Yank" lawyer it mystifies me a bit, too, actually.  I'm not sure what the problem is.  I know you're being a little over the top here for a purpose, but in my experience one's job, trade or profession (what's the difference anyway?) has nothing to do with it.  Rather, it's an issue of deep seated insecurity that some folks have.

[David_Elvins]

I have never been asked for access to my club.  If anyone who feels hounded by access seekers, PM me and I will be happy to share my tactics. 

[Tim Martin]

Don't kill the golden goose. Keep some things off social media.

[Andrew Buck]

I have never been asked for access to my club.  If anyone who feels hounded by access seekers, PM me and I will be happy to share my tactics. 

I've found belonging to club no one wants to play in a location that no one wants to visit very effective. 

[Bryan Icenhower]

Few things here from my perspective
- wish I lived in the UK at times like this
- we all tend to jump to conclusions without even attempting to get the facts.  That's disappointing.
- i fell bad for the poster before, he was tried, judged and hung w/o any sort of due process while trying to, yes IMO, to do something nice.
- lots to like in Jason's rules, although I really don't care about +1.  Golf is a social sport, if you are traveling with a guest, so be it.
- if you want to play where i belong, and it works in my schedule, I would love it if you asked. I have never met a GCAer that I did not enjoy spending the day with.  I am very proud of the courses I belong to, and love sharing the nuances that those I regularly play with must roll their eyes when I talk about.
- I travel extensively for work and have never asked a single person for access.  And no, I am not asking.  And yes there are many course I would love to play.  I have been very fortunate in my life and have played more than my fair share of great places.  If I don't play anymore, so be it.  I will be more disappointed in missing out in the experience of playing with a like minded "golf nut" like myself than missing out on playing X course.

Golf has given to me more than I think I can ever pay back, but that won't stop me from trying to even the score.  Rob, happy to host you where I belong, thanks for offering up a commodity that was ultimately worth a lot of money on the open market to a group of strangers free of surcharges just b/c we (mostly) tend to think alike.

[John Cowden]

+1 to Bryan.

May the record reflect that the pulled thread had nothing to do with anybody initiating a request for access.  Rather, one of our own tribe offered an extremely generous opportunity to like-minded members of the tribe.  There was absolutely no quid pro quo.  But that offer was pilloried for no apparent reason than that it was made.   Indeed, to my knowledge those who chastised this very special invitation had legitimate reason to do so.  My bottom line response:  WTF?