[Jason Topp]

For my game I find really deep bunkers to be very interesting hazards.   If they are fairway bunkers, they provide a fearsome hazard and, a continuim of interesting recovery shots ranging from a pitch out backwards all the way to an attempt to hit the green.  Greenside - they up the stakes for an aggressive iron shot while providing an opportunity for recovery with an excellent bunker shot.

However - I have watched many women in such bunkers and, unless they are very good players, they have absolutely no chance of getting out of them. 

Should a designer ignore this issue?  Do the advantages outweigh this disadvantage?  Does the conclusion vary depending on the course?  Can a course be all things to all people?  Should it attempt to be all things to all people?

[Mark Chaplin]

Jason pop down to Deal on a Wednesday morning and you'll find plenty of 15 handicap ladies getting out of deep bunkers. You'll also notice the majority of them are better at avoiding bunkers in the first place!

[Sean_A]

Jason

I don't know what you mean by deep bunkers, but I take your point where those Raynor flat bunkers at the bottom of 15 foot green banks are concerned. Personally, I don't think that sort of bunker is very often necessary, but ya gotta have few here and there just because    My general solution for deep bunkering is less of them.  If the bunkers are that harsh and well placed, there isn't much need for 80 of them - far lees will likely do.  To be fair, I don't come across many courses with seriously deep bunkers so I am not sure how big an issue it is.

Ciao

[Jason Topp]

Jason

I don't know what you mean by deep bunkers, but I take your point where those Raynor flat bunkers at the bottom of 15 foot green banks are concerned. Personally, I don't think that sort of bunker is very often necessary, but ya gotta have few here and there just because    My general solution for deep bunkering is less of them.  If the bunkers are that harsh and well placed, there isn't much need for 80 of them - far lees will likely do.  To be fair, I don't come across many courses with seriously deep bunkers so I am not sure how big an issue it is.

Ciao

Sean - at my course, most of the bunkers are deep enough you cannot see out of them, so I guess that is my definition. I love them as hazards but you do not see many women on the course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Have told the story about a well known architect remodeling a course where the 9th was a par 3 over a pond.  Soon after opening, the women in the club complain to him that the 9th was too far to carry the bunker fronting the green, and the bunker was too deep to get out going forward, and the pond prevented hitting out backwards.  That deep bunker effectively ended their  round (because they couldn't finish the hole, or chance of making a good score as they were forced play as unplayable lie, but with no real drop options but back over the pond)

the architects response?  "Had I known that, I would have put it on the first hole."

As pointed out on another thread, geometric design, zig zag fw and other items of the last 100 years of architecture are in fact aimed at making a course more playable by all.  Not that some courses can't have a lot of them, or a lot of courses have a few each of them.  Its just that most courses can't have a lot of them for golf to be popular.

[Jordan Caron]

Jeff Mingay came in and did our bunkers. I love Jeff along with the work his he done at the club. The bunkers look great and offer a true hazard and penalty for hitting in them.

However, for the average player, they struggle to get out of a couple of bunkers that have been made a touch deeper by having steeper banks. Not all bunkers are like this however. But some are and it's near impossible for people who can't generate enough swing speed to attack the shot to get some air underneath it.

Unlike a water hazard where you take a one shot penalty and drop outside, you can't that in bunkers. I supposed players could play back out of the bunker and away from the green.

[Bill_McBride]

Jason

I don't know what you mean by deep bunkers, but I take your point where those Raynor flat bunkers at the bottom of 15 foot green banks are concerned. Personally, I don't think that sort of bunker is very often necessary, but ya gotta have few here and there just because    My general solution for deep bunkering is less of them.  If the bunkers are that harsh and well placed, there isn't much need for 80 of them - far lees will likely do.  To be fair, I don't come across many courses with seriously deep bunkers so I am not sure how big an issue it is.

Ciao

Sean - at my course, most of the bunkers are deep enough you cannot see out of them, so I guess that is my definition. I love them as hazards but you do not see many women on the course.

My wife was in the deep bunker in front of our 14th green yesterday.    I was behind the green.  All I could see was the top,of her cap, she's barely 5'.   Hit the bunker shot to a foot.   We had just talked about the shot and I reminded her to finish high.   She has refused to pay for a lesson. 

So women can get out of deep bunkers, it's all a question of technique and coaching.   

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jason pop down to Deal on a Wednesday morning and you'll find plenty of 15 handicap ladies getting out of deep bunkers. You'll also notice the majority of them are better at avoiding bunkers in the first place!

Are they deeper than Kingsley's?

[Jon McSweeny]

I've seen this at a course that went through a fairly recent remodel. A club I visit about a half-hour east of Los Angeles was redone about 10 years ago (or so) and the work is- IMO- beautiful. I absolutely love the course.

As a non-member I only get to play as a guest and one of the people that I get to play there with is a senior player who has a lot of trouble dealing with the depth of the new bunkers. On occasion, I play with him and his wife and she struggles with the same issue. Despite being pretty good players, a shot of theirs that ends up in the wrong bunker frequently leads to an X which is really unfortunate and does take away- to a small degree- the general enjoyment of the day.

It's a tough issue. I absolutely love the challenge of the work that was done but I'm not sure it's a great fit for everyone and most importantly, I suspect it's a real challenge for a hefty chunk of the membership there.

That said, I've haven't found a member yet that actually complains. Perhaps some of the more "experienced players" are a lot tougher than I give them credit for.

[Niall C]

.

[Niall C]

Jason

I don't know what you mean by deep bunkers, but I take your point where those Raynor flat bunkers at the bottom of 15 foot green banks are concerned. Personally, I don't think that sort of bunker is very often necessary, but ya gotta have few here and there just because    My general solution for deep bunkering is less of them.  If the bunkers are that harsh and well placed, there isn't much need for 80 of them - far lees will likely do.  To be fair, I don't come across many courses with seriously deep bunkers so I am not sure how big an issue it is.

Ciao

Sean - at my course, most of the bunkers are deep enough you cannot see out of them, so I guess that is my definition. I love them as hazards but you do not see many women on the course.

My wife was in the deep bunker in front of our 14th green yesterday.    I was behind the green.  All I could see was the top,of her cap, she's barely 5'.   Hit the bunker shot to a foot.   We had just talked about the shot and I reminded her to finish high.   She has refused to pay for a lesson. 

So women can get out of deep bunkers, it's all a question of technique and coaching.   

Bill

Obviously the trick for women getting out of deep bunkers is for them to marry well.

Niall

[Tim Liddy]

Claude Harmon gave a lesson on how to get out of a bunker with a one arm swing. It worked for all the women of his club.

A few favorite quotes:

"The object of a bunker is not only to punish a physical mistake, to punish lack of control, but also to punish pride and egotism."
CB MacDonald

"There is no thrill in driving over an ugly hazard."
Alister MacKenzie

There are many more great quotes about hazards and welcome them from others. The is another great quote about a hazard being so intimidating it should have a name, but cannot remember it at the moment.

[Matt Waidmann]

When I think of deep bunkers in courses I've played I automatically think of Arcadia Bluffs.  Some of the green side, sod-walled bunkers there are a true 1 or 2 stroke penalty.  Bunkers like these are good and bad.  Good, because the average golfer who plays there is in awe of the construction of a bunker, like the one in front of #14 green.  They may have never seen a deep bunker like that one and may never again, and even though it may have ruined their hole they still talk about that bunker to this day and the fact that they got the chance to play a course designed in such a way.  Bad, because good players sooner or later would find one of these bunkers and it would ruin their round, and in turn they would criticize the course for being over-the-top in the design and too penal.  However, I think ultimately these bunkers increase the enjoyment of the game because it is something out of the ordinary design-wise for the average golfer and keeps them wanting more.

[Adam Clayman]

There are few greater thrills in golf than a great recovery shot, from the nastiest of deep green side bunkers. Poor populists.

[Eric Smith]

There are few greater thrills in golf than a great recovery shot, from the nastiest of deep green side bunkers. Poor populists.

Amen, brother!

[Patrick_Mucci]

For my game I find really deep bunkers to be very interesting hazards.   If they are fairway bunkers, they provide a fearsome hazard and, a continuim of interesting recovery shots ranging from a pitch out backwards all the way to an attempt to hit the green.  Greenside - they up the stakes for an aggressive iron shot while providing an opportunity for recovery with an excellent bunker shot.

However - I have watched many women in such bunkers and, unless they are very good players, they have absolutely no chance of getting out of them. 

Jason,

One of the most enjoyable course to play is NGLA.

It has some very deep bunkers.
The front of #8 green and right flank of # 7 green, just to name two.

Yet, women play the course without any complaints.

Seems to me that people tend to complain when they think that their complaining will be responded to by corrective measures.

Solution:  Take some lessons on how to first avoid deep bunkers, and then how to get out of them should you fail the first mission.

Should a designer ignore this issue?  Do the advantages outweigh this disadvantage?  Does the conclusion vary depending on the course?  Can a course be all things to all people? 

Should it attempt to be all things to all people?

If you're implying "dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator"  NO

[Mark Bourgeois]

There are few greater thrills in golf than a great recovery shot, from the nastiest of deep green side bunkers. Poor populists.

Amen, brother!

Dude.

[Steve Lang]

  Hopefully folks will see some action in the really deep, flat bottom one protecting the left side of Oak Tree's 2nd (original 11th) hole during the 2014 Sr US Open.  I seem to remember it at least 10-12 feet deep.  The sloped side was intimidating to say the least



I wouldn't generalize about disadvantages, but opportunities, yes..

[Patrick_Mucci]

If I recall correctly, it seemed that Sand Hills had some cavernous like bunkers

[jeffwarne]

you can stick a flagstick in the middle of them and call them cups and tell people you're growing the game

[Bill Brightly]

Jason

I don't know what you mean by deep bunkers, but I take your point where those Raynor flat bunkers at the bottom of 15 foot green banks are concerned. Personally, I don't think that sort of bunker is very often necessary, but ya gotta have few here and there just because    My general solution for deep bunkering is less of them.  If the bunkers are that harsh and well placed, there isn't much need for 80 of them - far lees will likely do.  To be fair, I don't come across many courses with seriously deep bunkers so I am not sure how big an issue it is.

Ciao

Sean - at my course, most of the bunkers are deep enough you cannot see out of them, so I guess that is my definition. I love them as hazards but you do not see many women on the course.

My wife was in the deep bunker in front of our 14th green yesterday.    I was behind the green.  All I could see was the top,of her cap, she's barely 5'.   Hit the bunker shot to a foot.   We had just talked about the shot and I reminded her to finish high.   She has refused to pay for a lesson.  

So women can get out of deep bunkers, it's all a question of technique and coaching.  

I really hate to share this video with potential opponents... But it works, and is great advice for women... Phil stresses rhythm and length versus power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE2TouisBwg

[Joel_Stewart]

For a new course, Fazio built some very deep bunkers at Martis Camp in Lake Tahoe.  When you have a site that is on the side of a hill and you place bunkers on the low side of a hole they are double deep.

[Jason Topp]

For my game I find really deep bunkers to be very interesting hazards.   If they are fairway bunkers, they provide a fearsome hazard and, a continuim of interesting recovery shots ranging from a pitch out backwards all the way to an attempt to hit the green.  Greenside - they up the stakes for an aggressive iron shot while providing an opportunity for recovery with an excellent bunker shot.

However - I have watched many women in such bunkers and, unless they are very good players, they have absolutely no chance of getting out of them. 

Should a designer ignore this issue?  Do the advantages outweigh this disadvantage?  Does the conclusion vary depending on the course?  Can a course be all things to all people? 

Should it attempt to be all things to all people?

If you're implying "dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator"  NO

Nope -  I am not.  I am raising the question of whether the advantages of deep bunkers offset the disadvantages.  I do not think the answer to that question is a clear answer. 

The biggest advantage of deep green side bunkers is that they look cool or, as Joel's picture shows, required by the topography.

Other than that, I do not see much benefit to them.  I disagree with any suggestion that they are significantly more difficult to play from than shallow green side bunkers for the competent bunker player.  If you get the right thump, it really does not make a significant difference other than when you are short sided. 

If you want bunkers to be fearsome hazards, just add some sand, or remove some, or use beach sand, stop watering them so they firm up, or design them so the player faces a bunch of sidehill and downhill lies.  Such bunkers will give good players more fits than the manicured deep ones we see on many courses today.   

Some of the posts on this thread seem to reject or dismiss the idea that some bunkers are so deep that they will result in an X for a significant portion of the female playing public.  I have had many experiences of seeing someone go into a bunker and knowing they will never get out.  Perhaps that is ok if it inspires improved play.  From what I have seen it is more likely to inspire one to pick up the ball and throw it.

[Rick Shefchik]

Jason, I just can't see why any regular golfer can't become a competent player out of a deep bunker. If you watch that Phil Mickelson video that Bill linked to, he's swinging rhythmically, but hard enough to hit an 80-yard shot with a pitching wedge if he were hitting it off grass. Once a player realizes that you have to make a real swing (hard enough to splash the sand onto the green, for instance), the shot from a deep bunker is doable. If a player can't or won't swing that hard, there's no shame in going out sideways or backwards. I've had to do that, even from one of the shallowest bunkers on our course, when I was up against a back edge. Every challenge in golf is an opportunity to learn.

[Tom_Doak]

Some of the posts on this thread seem to reject or dismiss the idea that some bunkers are so deep that they will result in an X for a significant portion of the female playing public.  I have had many experiences of seeing someone go into a bunker and knowing they will never get out.  Perhaps that is ok if it inspires improved play.  From what I have seen it is more likely to inspire one to pick up the ball and throw it.

Jason:

Pacific Dunes has some exceptionally deep and difficult bunkers, yet I have had quite a few women golfers tell me how much they loved the course.  Maybe they were just lucky to steer clear of them?  Most of them do offer some way out, if not necessarily toward the green.

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