[Jud_T]

I have to say that, all bias aside, this could actually be a really good fit.  High end hotel and dining and he gets his entree into an Open venue. 

[Howard Riefs]

How delightful.

[Niall C]

Nice one Howard however there are two things wrong with that picture, firstly the lighthouse probably isn't owned by the hotel/course and secondly, come the next Open at Turnberry Tiger will likely be history.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark

Patrick has moved beyond fantasy and gone straight on to numptitude.

Patrick

It is entirely possible that the current owner is making a loss given the level of debt they are probably carrying, hence the sale.


If he was making a profit, why sell ?

And, if he was making a profit, why sell at that price ?

Are you sure that there's long term debt being carried ?

At £35m I would suggest there is a long way to go to before you hit rock bottom.

I'm not so sure, that's a huge hotel, a modern spa, and two golf courses on a great location

What is it they say about golf course development ? That it's the 3rd owner who eventually makes some money.

I always heard that it was the second owner, but, in these times, who knows.

As for your statement that an extra levy of £10 a year on members at Muirfield etc causing the clubs to fold, well I suspect that there is more chance of David Moyes getting a second chance of managing Man U.

$ 15K extra per year is not pocket change for any club and I suspect that member attrition would follow that increase quickly.
There may be a good number of wealthy members, but 15K will thin the ranks pretty quickly.

I heard that David was putting together a syndicate to buy Man U.

If the sale went through, how do the odds change on a second chance  

[Joel_Stewart]

I have to say that, all bias aside, this could actually be a really good fit.  High end hotel and dining and he gets his entree into an Open venue. 

I agree.  I don't know what the Dubai business plan was but I'm sure Trumps is better.

The R&A has had some issues with Turnberry as an Open location because of the infrastructure but I'm sure Trump will fix that. 

I don't see anything negative about this purchase, I just hope he can make it work, as well as Doonbeg. 

[Adam Lawrence]

The infrastructure problem with Turnberry as an Open venue is all about crowds getting there. No rail access and the road is not very good. I am not sure Trump can do anything about that.

[Tom_Doak]

The infrastructure problem with Turnberry as an Open venue is all about crowds getting there. No rail access and the road is not very good. I am not sure Trump can do anything about that.

He can just lean on his close friends in the Scottish government ... oh ... wait

[Martin Toal]

How delightful.

You won't be able to see the name when the waterfall is going at full tilt.

[Mark Chaplin]

Patrick you forget subscriptions in the UK are very low, a Muirfield member will pay in the region of £1000-£1500pa. No club anywhere charges £15k I think Wentworth is the very top end at £6k'ish, only a handful of clubs charge more than £2k pa.

[Jud_T]

I may not play the golf course again (if I'm gonna pay up again it'll be for the Old Course), and the wine markup could've made a sheik blush a decade ago, but as long as he puts the haggis back on the menu for a post-Prestwick indulgence, I'm good.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Yes, I'm aware of that, but if members had to take on the burden of operating losses of a huge hotel and spa and the servicing of significant debt, that would raise the subscription dramatically.  I used £ 10,000 as an arbitrary example.

You have to ask yourself, WHY is he buying and building all these golf courses ?

What's his exit strategy ?

Is his motive to make a considerable profit on a packaged sale, or is he doing it because he loves golf as much as we do ?

I don't see an end game in his lifetime.

I think he loves golf as much as anyone and wants to be known as the King of golf course ownership.

Not a bad thing.

[Niall C]

Patrick

Maybe not a bad thing as such but very egotistical and a long way from doing what he's doing for benevolent purposes, assuming of course that you are right in his motivation.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

Maybe not a bad thing as such but very egotistical and a long way from doing what he's doing for benevolent purposes, assuming of course that you are right in his motivation.

Niall,

Let me ask you some questions.

Who else is pro-active in golf for benevolent reasons ?
Who else is spending huge sums of money and investing it in golf courses ?
Whom, among successful people doesn't have an ego ?

As to his motives, I don't have a clue, but I do know that he loves golf as we do.

Sometimes you just have to give the devil his due 

Niall

[Niall C]

Patrick

I’m not up on the global golf business and you will appreciate that in the UK most of what we have in terms of golf courses are members clubs, so not really speaking from a position of knowledge. I will however hazard a guess and say that most golf course developers/operators are commercially driven with the management answerable to shareholders who presumably are more concerned with money than ego.

Perhaps a good comparison might be the bloke that did Bandon (Keiser or Koehler ?). I dare say he has a decent size ego, a love of golf etc but he also seems intent in benefiting the local community and fitting in with the neighbours in a way that Donald doesn’t care to. He also didn’t name his development after himself.

With regards to giving Trump his due, I’ve done that before and will again when deserved. However giving him credit for “saving” Turnberry would be like crediting Al Gore for inventing the internet.

Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

Trump has golf and hotels in his portfolio, so I'm sure he knows how to make money on both. I think he buys courses because he loves the game but also has the commercial acumen to make a profit or at least wipe their feet across the board.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,

Some people fly under the radar others revel in being constantly painted by it.

Some people enjoy flirting with "show biz" others avoid the spotlight of celebrity.

But, in the end don't we have to measure what they've done.

I think it's naive to think that the creation of a golf course is embraced by the locals and the environmentalists, irrespective of it's location.

Some people just take different paths to achieve their goal.

Do you believe that anyone other than Trump would have succeeded at Balmedie ?

[Niall C]

Do you believe that anyone other than Trump would have succeeded at Balmedie ?

No, and I’ve said as much. No one else, even Stewart Milne, would have got planning permission (I doubt he’d even of tried) and he’s done 100 times more for the Aberdeen and Scottish economy than Trump will ever do.

However before you give him plaudits for succeeding, bear in mind all he has done so far is build one course and put in some infrastructure. He has yet to accomplish the rest of his grand plan. Let’s just wait and see if he comes out of that one with money in his pocket.

Niall 

[Niall C]

Just listened to a very interesting comment from Peter Dawson on the radio. After making polite noises about how reassuring it was that someone of Donald Trumps stature was willing to invest in golf, Turnberry would still be known as Turnberry irrespective of what any new owner called it and Turnberry would be the name that would be going on the claret jug next time the Open was played there.

Niall

[jeffwarne]

Just listened to a very interesting comment from Peter Dawson on the radio. After making polite noises about how reassuring it was that someone of Donald Trumps stature was willing to invest in golf, Turnberry would still be known as Turnberry irrespective of what any new owner called it and Turnberry would be the name that would be going on the claret jug next time the Open was played there.

Niall

The same guys who bring us the Rolex Senior Open

[Niall C]

Jeff

I should add that Dawson also referenced the previous owners of the resort........well, actually he didn't and that was his point, no one can remember their names or what they called the place at the time (Westin Turnberry possibly ?).

With regards, the Open and the mickey mouse senior tournament, there's a huge difference. Putting a commercial on the Jug would be one step too far. Should be an interesting conversation mind you, when Donald gets round to pitching for the Open.

Niall

[Jim Sherma]

I view the strategy as an investment into the deepening wealth and income inequality that is ocurring globally. The portfolio he is building will make a very good "club" membership for the members and children of the 0.01%. If I could afford a package deal to all of the Trump properties and have the time and resources to cycle around them for week or so at each that would be a pretty sweet deal in my mind. You throw in an investment in Dubai, London, Shanhai and a few other international cities anbd banking havens this could become a very very good investment.

Trump is smart, the middle upper-middle class is dissipating and the bottom never was a market that he worried about. Investing into the top is smart as long as there is not any social unrest on the horizon.

Mark,

Yes, I'm aware of that, but if members had to take on the burden of operating losses of a huge hotel and spa and the servicing of significant debt, that would raise the subscription dramatically.  I used £ 10,000 as an arbitrary example.

You have to ask yourself, WHY is he buying and building all these golf courses ?

What's his exit strategy ?

Is his motive to make a considerable profit on a packaged sale, or is he doing it because he loves golf as much as we do ?

I don't see an end game in his lifetime.

I think he loves golf as much as anyone and wants to be known as the King of golf course ownership.

Not a bad thing.

[Jud_T]

I have to say that given the choice of lesser evils, that History may very well view Trump as a better steward of the game than Dawson.  Of course, that isn't saying much...

[Steve Salmen]

I think a question being implied  is this:  Which benefits more from the other, the golf course from the hotel or the hotel from the golf course?

Whenever I visit Scotland, my trip revolves around playing as much golf as possible.  Since it gets pricey, I tend to cut corners on accommodations.  To me, the golf courses would survive without Trump.  There is plenty of accommodation in Prestwick, Troon, and Ayr.  Turnberry is such a great course that it would not lose that much business if the hotel was not around.  It just may not have the maintenance budget it has with the hotel and high guest fees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just listened to a very interesting comment from Peter Dawson on the radio. After making polite noises about how reassuring it was that someone of Donald Trumps stature was willing to invest in golf, Turnberry would still be known as Turnberry irrespective of what any new owner called it and Turnberry would be the name that would be going on the claret jug next time the Open was played there.

Niall,

I feel your pain.

Cape Canaveral, Idlewild Airport and the Triboro Bridge will always be known to me by those names and not any subsequent monikers 

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think a question being implied  is this:  Which benefits more from the other, the golf course from the hotel or the hotel from the golf course?

Whenever I visit Scotland, my trip revolves around playing as much golf as possible.  Since it gets pricey, I tend to cut corners on accommodations.  To me, the golf courses would survive without Trump.  There is plenty of accommodation in Prestwick, Troon, and Ayr.  Turnberry is such a great course that it would not lose that much business if the hotel was not around.  It just may not have the maintenance budget it has with the hotel and high guest fees.

Steve,

So you think people will fly thousands of miles to play the course and be content to be housed an hour from the course ?

And, That there's sufficient capacity to house the same number of golfers who stay at the hotel ?

What business are you in ?

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